O'Grady: Incredible. What about in Rome? What kind of... Do you think they're going... Well, they're asking about problems with the police and getting (indistinct).Prabhupada: That problem is everywhere.
O'Grady: Everywhere.
Prabhupada: Yes. Police sometimes harass us, and they become later on tired and do not do anything. (chuckles) Arresting, arresting, they become tired.
O'Grady: They become tired.
Prabhupada: Yes.
O'Grady: The system gives up. That's a marvelous solution. Because I feel very tired with the system myself. So there's something wrong with the system as being. So maybe you can give me some advice how to beat the system. Because I assure you, here in Rome...
Prabhupada: But you Irish people, you are never tired to fight. (laughter)
O'Grady: No. We've been fighting for three thousand years now.
Prabhupada: I think the fighting is going on still.
O'Grady: Very much so. Very badly, very bad now, very bad. What do you do about that? And that's a serious question. Is it morally correct to be sitting here, for me to be sitting here...
Prabhupada: You see, so long people will remain under the bodily concept of life, that "I am this body," "I am Irish," "I am English," "I am American," "I am Italian," so long this misconception will go on, fight will go on. You see? Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatu... There is a verse in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Just like you cannot stop fighting between the dogs and cats. Why there is fighting? Because the dog is thinking, "I am dog." The cat is thinking, "I am cat." Similarly, if I think as Irishman, "I am Englishman," it is the same thing. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," so if I think, "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," I am no better than the dog. So as we cannot stop the fighting between dogs, similarly, so long people will remain in bodily concept of life, the fighting cannot be stopped.
O'Grady: What was Mahatma Gandhi fighting in the House of Commons in England?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is also another dogism. Because there is no difference. Just try to understand. The dog is thinking, "I am dog." Why? Because he has got the body of a dog. Similarly, if I am thinking, "I am Indian" because I have got the body in the Indian soil, where is the difference? There is no difference.
O'Grady: The Englishman thinks there's a difference.
Prabhupada: No, anyone. The bodily concept of life is animalism. When we think that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," then there is peace. Otherwise there cannot be any peace. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. In the Vedic literature it is described that persons who is in the bodily concept of life, he is exactly like the cow and the ass. That means animal. So people has to transcend this qualitative conception of existence. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. You will find this verse. Find out this verse,
mam ca 'vyabhicarini-
bhakti-yogena yah sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
Nitai: Yes, 14.26.
mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena
bhakti-yogena sevate
sa gunan samatityaitan
brahma-bhuyaya kalpate
[Bg. 14.26]
"One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Nitai: This verse is a reply to Arjuna's third question: What is the means of attaining to the transcendental position? As explained before, the material world is acting under the spell of the modes of material nature. One should not be disturbed by the activities of the modes of nature; instead of putting his consciousness into such activities, he may transfer his consciousness to Krsna activities. Krsna activities are known as bhakti-yoga -- always acting for Krsna. This includes not only Krsna, but His different plenary expansions such as Rama and Narayana. He has innumerable expansions. One who is engaged in the service of any of the forms of Krsna, or of His plenary expansions, is considered to be transcendentally situated. One should also note that all the forms of Krsna are fully transcendental, blissful, full of knowledge and eternal. Such personalities of Godhead are omnipotent and omniscient, and they possess all transcendental qualities. So, if one engages himself in the service of Krsna or His plenary expansions with unfailing determination, although these modes of material nature are very difficult to overcome, he can overcome them easily. This is already explained in the Seventh Chapter. One who surrenders unto Krsna at once surmounts the influence of the modes of material nature. To be in Krsna consciousness or in devotional service means to acquire the equality of Krsna. The Lord says that His nature is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, and the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme, as gold particles are part of a gold mine. Thus the living entity's spiritual position is as good as gold, as good as Krsna in quality. The difference of individuality continues, otherwise there is no question of bhakti-yoga. Bhakti-yoga means that the Lord is there, the devotee is there and the activity of exchange of love between the Lord and the devotee is there. Therefore the individuality of two persons is present in the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the individual person, otherwise there is no meaning to bhakti-yoga. If one is not situated in the same transcendental position with the Lord, one cannot serve the Supreme Lord. To be a personal assistant to a king, one must acquire the qualifications. Thus the qualification is to become Brahman, or freed from all material contamination. It is said in the Vedic literature: brahmaiva san brahmapyeti. One can attain the Supreme Brahman by becoming Brahman. This means that one must qualitatively become one with Brahman. By attainment of Brahman, one does not lose his eternal Brahman identity as individual soul.
Prabhupada:
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]
Find out this verse.
O'Grady: The best truth, and I think it's truth for most of us who take ourselves seriously...
Prabhupada: Just like in our society, we have got Americans, we have got Africans, Canadians, Indians, Christians, Jews, Mohammedans. But they are no longer Mohammedan, American, Christian or African. They are all servants of Krsna. And that is Brahman realization.
O'Grady: But that's giving it a name also.
Prabhupada: Yes, name, must be there. But name... Just like you are feeling as Irishman, but your name may be different from another Irishman. How do you feel that "We are all Irishmen"? The name may be different. That doesn't matter. But the quality can be one. That is required. So when acquires that quality, Krsnaite quality, that in spite of different names... That is called so 'ham. One feels... The same example: In a nation, in a group, the names may be different, but because they feel nationally or religiously one, so that is one. Varieties. Varieties may be different, but the object being one, that is oneness. What is that, brahma-bhutah prasannatma?
Nitai:
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
[Bg. 18.54]
"One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me. Purport."
Prabhupada: He gets equality, attains equality position. Yes, purport?
Nitai: To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma-bhuta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or pure devotee, one has to go still further to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20], oneness with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute conception, there is no difference between the served and the servitor; yet the distinction is there, in a higher spiritual sense.
In the material concept of life, when one works for sense gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery. The devotee in Krsna consciousness has nothing to lament or desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God's service, in Krsna consciousness, becomes also full in himself. He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure devotee has no thought other than Krsna, he is naturally always joyful. He does not lament for any material loss or gain because he is full in service of the Lord. He has no desire for material enjoyment because he knows that every living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and therefore eternally a servant. He does not see, in the material world, someone as higher and someone as lower; higher and lower positions are ephemeral, and a devotee has nothing to do with ephemeral appearances or disappearances. For him stone and gold are of equal value. This is the brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20] stage, and this stage is attained very easily by the pure devotee. In that stage of existence, the idea of becoming one with the Supreme Brahman and annihilating one's individuality becomes hellish, and the idea of attaining the heavenly kingdom becomes phantasmagoria, and the senses are like broken serpents' teeth. As there is no fear of a serpent with broken teeth, so there is no fear from the senses when they are automatically controlled. The world is miserable for the materially infected person, but for a devotee the entire world is as good as Vaikuntha, or the spiritual sky. The highest personality in this material universe is no more significant than an ant for a devotee. Such a stage can be achieved by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, who preached pure devotional service in this age.
O'Grady: Could you read the opening little bit again?
Nitai: In the purport?
O'Grady: Yeah.
Nitai: "To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma-bhuta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word."
O'Grady: O.K. Now, is the Absolute internal or external?
Prabhupada: Absolute has no internal or external. That is Absolute. If there is internal and external, it is not Absolute.
O'Grady: I don't mean in time, and I don't mean in space. I mean in time in the sense that one is born and one dies, etc., that is, in one's own time, one's own Absolute, ultimately the Absolute that one finds for oneself.
Prabhupada: No, we are not absolute. We, when we are situated in the absolute platform, then we are absolute. Now we are in the relative world. Here there is absolutism, but the sense is not so elevated to understand the absolutism. So so long we are under the control of time, there is no question of becoming absolute.
O'Grady: So therefore there is a life beyond time.
Prabhupada: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita.
janma karma me divyam
yo janati tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti kaunteya
[Bg. 4.9]
Find out this verse.
Nitai: Chapter Four, text nine:
janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna
[Bg. 4.9]
"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna."
Prabhupada: And that is absolute. When he goes back to home, back to Godhead, that is absolute. So long he is in the material world, changing body, transmigrating from one body to another, that is not absolute plane. That is the duality plane, dualism. When we go back to home, back to..., in the spiritual world, that is absolute.
O'Grady: When he goes back to his original.
Prabhupada: Yes. Thank you very much. That is the position. That is absolute.
O'Grady: So you don't find it possible to achieve any absolute condition in our time?
Prabhupada: No. In the material world it is not possible. This is the world of duality. Therefore so many different varieties of unity is suggested, but they are all failure. Just like when we were students in 1917, so there was League of Nations. And after that again there was war. (chuckles)
O'Grady: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: And then, now they have manufactured United Nations. But for the last twenty years or more than that, they are endeavoring to be united, but when I go New York, I see flags are increasing, no united, disunity. You see? And war is going on. Therefore, on this material platform this so-called unity is impossible. Unity is possible only on the spiritual platform.
vidya-vinaya-sampanne
brahmane gavi hastini
suni caiva sva-pake ca
panditah sama-darsinah
[Bg. 5.18]
O'Grady: I'm not saying it's possible to achieve it. I'm not even thinking it's possible. I'm not even saying that I think it's desirable to achieve happiness in this life, in this world. Because I have a feeling, an intuition that...
Prabhupada: No, there is possibility -- when the consciousness is purified. That we are preaching, Krsna consciousness. Now, so long the consciousness is polluted, if I think that "I am Irishman," "I am Englishman," "I am Indian," "I am white," "I am black..."
O'Grady: Christian.
Prabhupada: "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," they are all contaminated. There is no possibility of unity in the contact of this world.
O'Grady: That's very... I'll accept that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
O'Grady: But supposing you think that you are neither an Irishman nor an Englishman or American, nor Christian, nor a Jew nor anything...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is negation. Then you must say also what you are.
O'Grady: I am a mortal human being, a member of the animal kingdom.
Prabhupada: No human being is immortal.
O'Grady: Mortal, mortal, mortal.
Prabhupada: Mortal.
O'Grady: That which dies, rots and is forgotten.
Prabhupada: That is some conception, mortality. Mortal? Mortality is not absolutism. So long you are mortal, you are not on the absolute platform because you are actually immortal. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, na jayate na mriyate va kadacit. Find out. Na jayate na mriyate va kadacit.
O'Grady: But is there anything wrong with accepting the fact that you are mortal, you die, you rot and you become nothing?
Prabhupada: No. That is the polluted conception. Actually you are immortal; you do not die. That is your position. Read this verse.
Nitai:
na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato 'yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire
[Bg. 2.20]
"For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."
Prabhupada: That is it. That is the position of the soul. So when there is mortality, that is not perfect stage. And when he attains the stage of again immortality... Because actually he is immortal.
O'Grady: Actuality is immortal.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
O'Grady: Hm, not bad. Because actuality has to do with effect.
Prabhupada: Yes. The actuality is immortal. He never takes birth...
O'Grady: Never takes bath?
Yogesvara: Birth.
O'Grady: Oh, never takes birth, true. But immortality, I mean, actuality, of course, has to do with the actuality of the situation that we have right now, with you sitting there and we, as friends, sitting with you and engaging in gentle conversation.
Prabhupada: Actually... Just like you are sitting in a different dress; I am sitting in a different dress. So the dress does not affect our actuality. We are human being. Similarly, the conception of body -- "I am Irishman, I am Englishman, I am Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian," -- these are different dresses. So one has to become free from these designations.
O'Grady: Accepted.
Prabhupada: So when one is free from the designations, then he becomes purified.
sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hrsikena hrsikesa
sevanam bhaktir ucyate
[Cc. Madhya 19.170]
So when we become purified, our senses are purified, and when the purified senses are engaged in the service of the master of the senses, that is perfect life. That is nonduality, absolute.
Bhagavan: That can be experienced in the present.
Prabhupada: Yes, by Krsna consciousness. And practically, you are coming from different groups-Americans, Indians, Africans -- but you don't think yourself as American or Indian or African.
O'Grady: But the system insists that you do.
Bhagavan: The world as it is, the society, the materialistic society, puts these bodily demands...
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. The materialistic society means duality.
O'Grady: But that's unavoidable.
Prabhupada: Yes.
O'Grady: Because of your physical existence...
Prabhupada: Unavoidable, yes...
O'Grady: And your personal spiritualism as well.
Prabhupada: But it can be avoided in Krsna consciousness. Just like the leaf of lily. It is in the water but it does not touches the water.
O'Grady: I didn't catch that last expression, no.
Bhagavan: Lily leaf.
Yogesvara: To show how we can live in this world but still be transcendental.
Bhagavan: There's a lily leaf that sits on the water and even though it sits on the water it doesn't get wet.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: Prabhupada is explaining we can be in this world...
O'Grady: But I don't think you can explain situations in one realm, in one area, in the terminology of situations in another one. Because if you put this element and this element together, you get salt. Now, if human nature was the same with that element in that person and that element in that person, you should also get salt. So if you've got fifty million elements and fifty million elements here you should get a mountain of salt.
Atreya Rsi: If you can try to understand this example.
O'Grady: Oh, I can, understand.
Prabhupada: What is that, salt? Salt example was... Explain.
Yogesvara: What was your point?
O'Grady: I'm saying its difficult to argue about one kind of situation in terms of another kind of situation when the nature of the problem or the nature of the result is different.
Prabhupada: No, the kinds or varieties may remain, but sometimes the varieties help. Just like if you bring varieties of flower in a vase, it becomes very beautiful, but they are all flowers. So you have to become flowers. So even in varieties there is unity of beauty.
O'Grady: Yes, I accept that, of course.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that is... [break]
Atreya Rsi: ...there's a great different between that and what we know today as Christians. They're designations. We are not talking...
Prabhupada: That is another point. The thing is that Christ came to preach the message of God. So therefore, to become actually Christ conscious means God conscious.
O'Grady: God conscious, exactly. And to become God conscious means...
Prabhupada: Krsna conscious.
O'Grady: To become self conscious.
Prabhupada: Yes.
O'Grady: To be conscious of who you are yourself.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. God consciousness includes self consciousness. But self consciousness is not God consciousness. God consciousness includes self consciousness, but self consciousness is not God consciousness.
O'Grady: Well, it may be.
Prabhupada: No.
O'Grady: You may achieve recognition of the God that's in yourself, of that aspect.
Prabhupada: When you are God conscious...
O'Grady: Without being pantheistic, you mean?
Prabhupada: Just Like if you come in front of the sunlight, the sun consciousness is there, which includes your personal conscious... you also see. In the darkness you cannot see. At night you do not see even your hands and legs. But if you come in front of the sun, or light, then you see the sun and see yourself. So without the sunlight, without God consciousness, self consciousness is incomplete. But God consciousness makes self consciousness very clear.
O'Grady: Well, a lot of young people that we meet in our teaching profession, we don't try to teach them any kind of didactic salvation. But we do try to direct them towards an awareness of what is best and what is most good for them and what is most spiritually nourishing in the world about them, in so far as the system allows us. And I speak of my friend Michael and we here. And the one condition or emotional state -- because very frequently the students are not mature enough to be in a spiritual condition, they are in a emotional condition rather than a spiritual one -- what we are faced with, is the basic question of "Who am I?" "What is it all about?" "Why am I here?" "Why should I be here"? "Who are you, and who the hell are you to tell me what to think or what to read or what not to read? Why should I read Shakespeare? Or why should I read Saint Augustine? Or why should I listen to Mozart? I prefer Bob Dylan," and these kind of questions which seem to emanate from a very disillusioned state of mind, an insecurity, an uncertainty, and a lack of credibility in the total structure of things as they are. And so we're frequently faced with not just directly having to answer these questions, as I said didactically answering them by saying in a catechismic sort of way: "Who am I?" "You are..." "What am I doing here?" "You are doing this here," which one can do, of course, also.
Prabhupada: So...
O'Grady: And so, rather than present the kind of answers that one could present if one was trained in oneself originally... And one who is first of all trained, then one has to untrain oneself, and then one trains oneself from that experience basically. This is my way of seeing it. And then one tries to help others through this course with the same process. Do you think that we should tell them more directly, or... Well, the basic question is how to handle the problem of modern education.
Prabhupada: Yes. Our Vedic process is... There are so many questions, as you have already explained. Somebody thinks, "Why I have come here? And what is the purpose? What you are?" So many questions. Questions should be answered by the perfect. Therefore the Vedic injunction is tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] "In order to take answers of all these questions one must approach the bona fide spiritual master."
O'Grady: One must...?
Prabhupada: Approach the bona fide spiritual master.
Atreya Rsi: Approach.
O'Grady: The bona fide spiritual master. If you have none, what do you do?
Prabhupada: No, there is.
O'Grady: If you are told that Mr. Nixon is the bona fide spiritual master, what do you do?
Prabhupada: No, we have got standard. Who is bona fide spiritual master? Just like... The one line, you have heard only one line, that bona fide spiritual master, "You must approach the bona fide spiritual master." But who is bona fide spiritual master? Then that next question. That is also answered, that bona fide spiritual master means tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12]. This is the qualification of bona fide spiritual master. What is that? Srotriyam. Srotriyam means who has heard from the bona fide spiritual master. A bona fide spiritual master is he who has taken the message from bona fide spiritual master. This is the... Just like a medical man is he who has taken the knowledge of medical science from another medical man.
O'Grady: Just like Christ took this knowledge from the Holy Ghost.
Prabhupada: Yes. And anyone. Yes. Similarly, bona fide spiritual master means who is in the line of successive spiritual master. The original spiritual master is God. So then one who has heard from God and he has explained the same message to his disciple, then the disciple is bona fide spiritual master -- if he does not change. That is our process. We take lessons. We hear from Krsna who is the perfect, God. And that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2].
O'Grady: But then, you see my poor old father, living in the west of Ireland, a simple man, at his age, seventy now, your generation, he has gotten to the point at his age where he says, "Well, they tell me, the priests they tell me ultimately it's God who knows. But I want to know who told God."
Prabhupada: No.
O'Grady: And then he comes to me and asks me and says, "You went to school and you read big books. Tell me who told God." And so I have no answer.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the difference between God and me.
O'Grady: That's the difference between being seventy and thirty-nine.
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of... That is explained in the..., that Bhagavata, Brahma-sutra, who is God, first of all. Who is God?
O'Grady: Who told God?
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all, "Who is God?" Then we shall ask, "Who told God?" (chuckles) That God... That is the Vedanta-sutra, athato brahma jijnasa: "Now we should enquire about God, what is God, who is God." Unless you know who is God, how can you raise the question, "Who instructed God?" If you do not know God, then the question does not arise, "Who instructed God?" Is it not? Yes. So therefore God is explained in the Brahma-sutra, janmady asya yatah: [SB 1.1.1] "God is He from everything comes, emanates." That is God. That God is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, janmady asya yatah: [SB 1.1.1] "The Supreme Being from whom everything emanates." Now, what is that Supreme Being? What is the nature of the Supreme Being? It is a dead stone or a living being? That is also explained. Janmady asya yatah anvayad itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah sva-rat [SB 1.1.1]. "That God is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly." Unless He is fully cognizant of everything, directly and indirectly, He is not God. So then the same question comes, as you said, that "Who taught God?"
O'Grady: Yes, that's the man I want to meet.
Prabhupada: That is answered, sva-rat. "Independent." That is God.
O'Grady: Independ...?
Prabhupada: Independent. He is fully independent. He does not require to take lessons from anyone. That is God. That is God. If anyone requires to take lesson from other, he is not God. Who does not require to take lesson from other, that is God.
O'Grady: Where does human love enter into it?
Prabhupada: Everything is there. Because love is also coming from God. So we are being part and parcel of God, there is part and parcel manifestation of love because the original love is there in God. Because nothing can exist. Nothing can exist if it is not in God.
O'Grady: Therefore we love.
Prabhupada: The love is also there in God.
O'Grady: But God is not love?
Prabhupada: God is love. God is everything.
O'Grady: Oh, yeah. Then love is God.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
O'Grady: Our manifestations of love are manifestations of God.
Prabhupada: Ah... Because we are part and parcel... Just like son born of a particular father, he has got the symptoms, so because there is loving propensity in God and we being part and parcel of God, therefore we have got this loving propensity. This is the conclusion. Unless the loving propensity is there in God, where we get it?
O'Grady: Maybe it's generated in you by the need...
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of "maybe." It must be, must be.
O'Grady: Oh, very... Yes, I accept the strong word.
Prabhupada: Yes. There is no question of... Because we have defined God, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. God is He wherefrom everything emanates. That is God. So love, love or even fight. The fighting propensity is also there in God. And loving propensity is also there in God. But His fighting propensity and loving propensity -- absolute. Just like in the material world we have got experience, fighting propensity is just opposite the loving propensity. But in God, either fighting propensity or loving propensity, they are one and the same, therefore He is absolute. That is the meaning of absolute. Just like we get from sastras. The so-called enemies of God who is killed by God, he also attains perfection.
O'Grady: Yes, the vengeful... Yes, that I understand, the avenging God of Biblical imagination as against... Is it possible to do it all on your own, alone?
Prabhupada: No. Therefore the Vedas say, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Abhigacchet means "he must." It is not possible alone. This word, this abhigacchet, this verb, is used in Sanskrit grammar... This is called vidhilin form of verb. So vidhilin form of verb is used when there is a..., matter is a must. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, samit-panih srotriyam. And that is the Vedic version. Therefore... You have read Bhagavad-gita. You will find Arjuna was talking with Krsna. Then, when the things were not solved, perplexed, Arjuna surrendered himself, sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam. Find out this verse.
Nitai: Text seven.
karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah
prcchami tvam dharma-sammudha-cetah
yac chreyah syan niscitam bruhi tan me
sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam
[Bg. 2.7]
"Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness."
Prabhupada: Yes. That... Here is the question, "confused."
O'Grady: I am the first statement. "I am confused about my duty," that what is the... Thank you.
Nitai: "...and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am..."
O'Grady: This duty, this duty, is this duty to the self or duty to others or duty to the state?
Prabhupada: He is confused because he was a ksatriya, soldier. A soldier's duty is to fight with the enemy. So Krsna was advising him, "The opposite party is your enemy. You are a ksatriya. Why you are trying to become non-violent? This is not good." Therefore he says, "Actually I am now confused. So in confusion I cannot take the right conclusion. I therefore accept You as my spiritual master. You just give me the proper lesson." This is the point. So they were friends. Still, he was confused. So in chaotic condition, in confusion status of life, we must approach the person who is in full knowledge of the things. Just like you go to a lawyer, you go to a physician; similarly, every one of us in the material world, we are confused. Therefore we must go to the spiritual master who can give us real knowledge.
O'Grady: Right. So, therefore, for example, I am very confused.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Atreya Rsi: He is confused.
O'Grady: Very confused.
Prabhupada: Yes. So you must approach a spiritual master.
O'Grady: And you make a decision, therefore to try to sort this confusion, to make some...
Prabhupada: Yes. Spiritual master means who solves all confusion. That is spiritual master. When one is confused, he goes to a spiritual master, and the spiritual master's duty is to save him from all confusion. That is the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple. If the spiritual master cannot save him from confusion, then he is not spiritual master. That is the test.
samsara-davanala-lidha-loka-
tranaya karunya-ghanaghanatvam
praptasya kalyana-gunarnavasya
vande guroh sri-caranaravindam **
This whole world is confusion, just like a blazing fire in the forest. When there is forest fire, all the animals become confused, "Where to go? How to save life?" It is very good example. When there is fire in the forest, all the animals become confused. Similarly, this material world is just like a blazing fire in the forest. Everyone is confused. Now how the blazing fire in the forest can be extinguished? You cannot take there your man-made fire brigade. That is not possible. Neither bucketful of water. So in this confused state of the human society you cannot manufacture the solution. The only solution is that when there is rain from the cloud on the forest fire, then it is extinguished. That is not in your hand; that is mercy of God. So spiritual master means who has received the mercy of God and he can deliver to the confused man. Then the solution is there. This is very good verse, samsara-davanala-lidha-loka-tranaya karunya-ghanaghanatvam, praptasya **. One who has received mercy of God, he can become spiritual master. He can deliver the mercy of God.
O'Grady: A friend, for example, yes.
Atreya Rsi: A real friend.
O'Grady: Well, if one says he's a friend, that's how he feels. A friend is a friend. There's no question of...
Atreya Rsi: True well-wisher.
O'Grady: There's no question of being half-real friend or unreal friend. A friend is a friend.
Prabhupada: Yes, the best friend is the spiritual master because he saves from the blazing fire of confusion. That is best friend.
O'Grady: The problem is to find this friend. The problem is to find this spiritual master.
Prabhupada: No, there is no problem. The problem is if you are sincere. Yes. That is stated. Because actually you have got problems, but God is within your heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese arjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. God is not far away. God is within your heart. So if you are sincere, then God will give you spiritual master. If He knows that now you are sincere, then He will give you a spiritual master.
O'Grady: O.K. Thank you. That I know.
Prabhupada: Therefore God is called caittya-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. And the physical spiritual master is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without, without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart. That is stated,
isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese arjuna tisthati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani
yantrarudhani mayaya
[Bg. 18.61]
All our questions are answered in the Bhagavad-gita very nicely.
Nitai:
isvarah sarva-bhutanam
hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani
yantrarudhani mayaya
[Bg. 18.61]
"The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directly the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy."
Prabhupada: The body is just like a machine, and the spirit soul is sitting on this machine, and God is there within the heart. So He is giving the direction. "You wanted to do this. Now you go and do this." This is the... So if you are sincere, "Now, God, I want You," then He will give you directions, "You go and get it." This is the process. But if we want something else than God, then God will give you direction, "You go and take it." He's very kind. Isvarah sarva... I want to have something and He is within my heart, and He is giving me, "Yes, you come here. You take this." So if that God can give direction to give you indication, "You go and take this," why not the spiritual master? First of all we must know, we must be eager to again revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us the spiritual master.
O'Grady: Thank you.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya.
O'Grady: His Grace must be very tired.
Dhananjaya: We can distribute some prasadam now?
Prabhupada: Yes. Give them.
Bhagavan: Stay, we have some prasadam.
Michael Robert: We have heard many profound things here this evening, Your Grace, Your Divine Grace, and I believe that this has been the most useful session and that the poet O'Grady has asked some good questions too. I should like to invite yourself and your followers perhaps to the Overseas School of Rome next Tuesday, if you'd care to come. No doubt your followers who are recording the session so carefully will record the address and the time. Tuesday at the Overseas School of Rome at 10:00 in the morning, if you'll care to come and met our students. They're invited to come.
Prabhupada: Where it is?
Yogesvara: It's a school in Rome.
Prabhupada: Oh. They want me to go there? Yes, I will go. It is my duty.
O'Grady: Just to pay a visit, meet the children.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is my duty to enlighten people about God consciousness.
O'Grady: God consciousness.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yogesvara: Thank you very much.
Michael Robert: Thank you all.
Atreya Rsi: Please stay for one minute.
Prabhupada: Please take prasada. Stay one minute. So another, I give my request. You are a poet. You describe about God. You are expert in describing. So you just take this occupation, describing God. Then your life will be successful, and one who will hear you, his life will be successful. That is the injunction.
idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va
(svistasya) suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoh
(avicyuto 'rthah) kavibhir nirupito
yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam
[SB 1.5.22]
There are poets, there are scientists, there are religionists, philosophers, politician, so many other leaders of the society. Avicyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupitah. To those who are expert, they are given this decision that the duty of all these men, avicyutah arthah, means the perfection of their occupational duty will be completely done when they are engaged, yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam, when they are engaged in describing the glories of the Supreme Being.
O'Grady: Well, in my experience, the process seems to be that while you begin... First of all, you, for some extraordinary reason, are chosen to do this.
Prabhupada: And that choosing is given. This is this verse: avicyutah arthah: "Infallible choice is this, that let them describe the glories of the Lord." This is infallible.
O'Grady: This one.
Prabhupada: Yes.
O'Grady: Not his brother, not his sister, but this one.
Atreya Rsi: Everyone is important.
O'Grady: But I'm talking about the process of ultimately doing it.
Prabhupada: No, no, just. When we speak of God, that includes all brothers, all sisters.
O'Grady: Yes, but you said...
Prabhupada: All of them. Not this brother, that brother. All brothers, all sisters.
O'Grady: Yes, but what I was saying...
Prabhupada: The God means complete.
Atreya Rsi: You're saying that the spiritual master is chosen?
O'Grady: I'm saying... Yes, a spiritual master the priest, the poet is chosen by, let's say, God, that is, this person is chosen to write poems or to paint pictures or to make music, compose music.
Prabhupada: No, whatever you do... music also, you can compose...
O'Grady: That's it... Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
O'Grady: O.K., I understand this. But whatever you do, that's it. It's the same thing. End of conversation.
Prabhupada: Not same thing. When you describe... Music, when you compose music about God, that is your perfection.
O'Grady: Absolutely. That is your purpose of life. And when you work in the land, that is your purpose. Yes, that's understood. (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada is saying that when you're working in the land...
O'Grady: That's what you're supposed to be doing.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. But when you give the results of that for God, that's the perfection of your work.
O'Grady: I know that. I'm aware about that. And when you come in from working on the land and you are eating your dinner, you must do it with the same involvement as you worked the land with, if that is your purpose of...
Yogesvara: You could say, with the same consciousness.
O'Grady: Yes, with the same consciousness, with the same dedication, with the same devotion, absolutely. And when there's supposed to be singing, the same way, enjoying yourself the same way, and when you're relaxing, you've got to do it with the same devotion, absolutely. No question about it. Otherwise you're being irresponsible. We should go. Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much for your coming.
O'Grady: We'll see you on Tuesday, hopefully. (guests leave) (end)
