Fotos de vijay
Ram Navami
| Cardinal Danielou: Yes. And Jesus, Jesus is this. So I am very, very glad to meet you... Prabhupada: May, may I ask you one question? Jesus says: "Thou shalt not kill." So why Christian people are killing? Cardinal Danielou: (French) Yogesvara: (French) Cardinal Danielou: It is forbidden in Christianity to kill. Surely. But chiefly we think that there is a difference between the life of man and the life the beasts. N'est ce pas? And that the life of man is sacred because man is the image of God. But we have not the same respect relating to the beasts, to the animals, and we think that the animals are at the service of man, and that it is legitime to man. For us, each life is not the same. What is really important is the life of man, and the human person is really sacred and it is forbidden to kill a human person... Prabhupada: No, but Jesus does not says "human being". He just said generally: "Thou shalt not kill." Yogesvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: (French) In the Bible we have many example of, by example, we have many sacrifice in the sacrifice of animals. You know. Many sacrifice of animals in the Bible. Alors. This is not forbidden. It is sure that it is a great sin to kill a man, alors. There is surely the great question of the war, the war, the national war. And is, it is... Prabhupada: You, you, you think that to kill an animal is no sin? Cardinal Danielou: No, no, no. No sin. No sin. No sin. Because we think that the simple biologic life is not sacred. That is, what is sacred is the human life, the human life. But not the life, ass. Prabhupada: But I think that it is interpretation. Jesus Christ says generally: "Thou shalt not kill." Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Jesus said, but this phrase is not, the text is not a text of Jesus. It is a text of the Old Testament, and it is a text... Prabhupada: No, it is New Testament also. Cardinal Danielou: Old Testament! Old Testament. Prabhupada: No, is it not in the New Testament? Cardinal Danielou: It is in the Levitic, in the Levitic, in the book of the Levitic. Prabhupada: Ahhh. Cardinal Danielou: It is not a word of Jesus. It is a word of the Levitic, and it is a part of the decalogue of the Ten Commandments what God gave to Moses. Prabhupada: That's all right. But Ten Commandments, one of the Commandments is that: "Thou shalt no kill." Yogesvara: (French) Cardinal Danielou: (French) Mais, it is surely, I think, it is surely the killing of the man. I think, I have a great difficulty to understand why in Indian religion... Because it is impossible... By example, it is necessary, pour la nourriture? Yogesvara: For food. Cardinal Danielou: Oui. For the food of man to eat, to eat, and... Prabhupada: Man can eat grains, food grains, fruits, milk, sugar, wheat... Cardinal Danielou: Not, not, (French)? Yogesvara: No flesh? Cardinal Danielou: No flesh? Prabhupada: No. Why? Just like the fruits. The fruits are meant for human being. The tiger does not come to eat your fruits. So tiger's food is another animal. Man's food is fruit, food grains, milk products. Just like fruit... Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. I understand. It is why because grain and plants are also living beings. Prabhupada: That's all right, that's all right. Cardinal Danielou: Living beings. Prabhupada: That, that we also understand. But if, if you cannot live... Just like, generally, if I can live on fruits and grains and milk, why should I kill another animal? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes... Prabhupada: Another thing is that how can you support that animal killing is not sin? Yogesvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: (French) Bhagavan: How do you justify it? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, because we, we thought that there is a difference of nature between life of man, life of spirit, and biological, biological life. And we say... [break] ...not really exists, and we think so. We think that animals, plant are not real beings, are world of appearance and that you human person only is real being. And that in this sense, the material world is without importance. Prabhupada: Now..., I follow. Suppose you are living in this house. So you are not this house, that's a fact. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes. Prabhupada: But if I come and break your house, is it not inconvenience for you? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, surely. Surely it is inconvenient. Prabhupada: So if I cause inconvenience unto you, is it not criminal? Cardinal Danielou: It is inconvenient to me, but is... Prabhupada: No. If I cause some inconvenience to you, is it not criminal? Is it not sinful? Cardinal Danielou: I think if there is a serious reason, it is not the destruction of the spiritual man itself. By example, it is perfectly possible to use of the reality of the material world, of the natural world to the valuable finality of human vocation. We think that the question is a question of motivation. It could exist bad reason to kill an animal. But if the killing of animal is to give food to children, men, women, we ont faim. Qui...? Devotee: Hungry. Cardinal Danielou: Hungry, we are hungry, it is legitimate, legitimate... We have... It is difficult to admit that in India, comment dit-on les vaches? Yogesvara: The cows. Cardinal Danielou: Oui, the cows. Prabhupada: One thing is... Danielou: It is not permitted to kill a...? Yogesvara: Cow. Cardinal Danielou: ...a cow to give him to children who are hungry and the... Prabhupada: No, no, from any other consideration, cows' milk we drink. Therefore she's mother. Is it not? Yogesvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui. Yogesvara: N'est ce pas? Cardinal Danielou: Oui, yes, surely, surely, but the... Prabhupada: According to Vedic conversion, we have got seven mothers. Atma-mata, the original mother, guroh patni, wife of the master, spiritual master... Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Bhagavan: Can you understand? Yogesvara: (translates) Prabhupada: Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani, the wife of the priest. Yogesvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Prabhupada: Raja-patnika, the wife of king, the queen. Yogesvara: (translates) Prabhupada: Four. Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani raja-patnika, dhenur. Dhenu means cow. Dhenur dhatri. Dhatri means nurse. Tatha prthvi. Prthvi means earth. These are seven mothers. So cow is mother because we drink milk, cow's milk. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupada: How can I deny that she's not mother? So how we can support killing of mother? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, it is a motive. But we think that... Prabhupada: Therefore, in India, those who are meat-eaters, they are advised... That is also under restriction. Advised to kill some lower animals like goats, even up to buffaloes. But cow killing is the greatest sin. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, we... I know this. I know this. And this is for us a difficulty, a difficulty... Prabhupada: Yes, because the cow is mother. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes... Prabhupada: You, you take the milk from the mother... Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. Prabhupada: And when she's old, she cannot give you milk, therefore she should be killed? Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Prabhupada: Is that very good proposal? Yogesvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui, oui. Yogesvara: He says yes, it is. Prabhupada: Eh? Yogesvara: He says: "Yes, it is a good proposition." Cardinal Danielou: If, if the men are hungry, it is the life of men is more important than the life of cow. Prabhupada: Therefore, because we are propagating this Krsna consciousness, we ask people to, not to eat meat, any kind. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes. Prabhupada: But if, under certain circumstances, you are obliged to eat meat, eat the flesh of some lower animals. Don't kill cows. It is the greatest sin. And so long one will be sinful, he'll not be able to understand what is God. But human being, main business is to understand God and to love Him. But if he remains sinful, neither he can understand God, and what to, what is the question of loving Him. Therefore at least from the human society, this cruel maintenance of slaughterhouses must be stopped. Cardinal Danielou: (French) Yogesvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. I think that this is perhaps not an essential point. I think that in this realm the uses of various religions can be good. The importance is to love God. Prabhupada: Yes. Cardinal Danielou: But the commandment practical can be various. Prabhupada: No. Just like God, if God says that: "You can do this," that is not sin. But if God says that: "You cannot do it", then it is sin. Cardinal Danielou: When God says that it is not good to Indian, and says to the Jews that it is... Prabhupada: No, no. Now take... Therefore I say that Jesus Christ, either you call him God, or confidential representative of God, both of them are one, when he says: "Thou shalt not kill," why should we interpret in an another way, to our convenience? Cardinal Danielou: Yes, but Jesus eated (French, refers to passover lamb) Yogesvara: (French) Cardinal Danielou: Mutton, mutton. Yogesvara: Oh, the sheep. Cardinal Danielou: Oui, the sheeps... Prabhupada: That's all right, but Jesus Christ never maintained slaughterhouse. Yogesvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Non, mais... He eated, he eated, he eated... Prabhupada: In certain circumstances, when there is no other food, that a life must be saved. That is another thing. But why regularly slaughterhouse should be maintained for the satisfaction of the tongue? Yogesvara: Is it clear? (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Oui. But I think there is, at first, a great duty to help men and women and children to live and actually it is the first duty. It is more important to help men and women to life. The life of beast is of minor importance than the life of men. Prabhupada: From that point of view, you can kill lower animals. Why should you kill mother? Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. Mother. Man, as human being is not the same that... Prabhupada: And it is not moral. Even if you kill animals for maintaining your..., allowing that, there are many other, hundreds and thousands of animals. So if you at all require, people eat also hogs, sometimes, in wartime, they ate dogs also. And there are persons, they regularly eat dogs in Korea. They eat dogs regularly. So even animal killing is necessary for... Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, it is... Prabhupada: ...for eating, then at least the mother animal should not be killed. That is from moral point of view. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, from moral point of view... Prabhupada: So our point of view is that we don't allow killing any animal. Our Krsna says: patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Krsna says vegetable, fruits, milk, grains, all these things should be offered to Me with devotion. And you should take the remnants of the foodstuff. So we take prasadam. And Krsna says: "Give Me foodstuff prepared from this group." That we do. Accepting that the fruits, they have got life. But fruits are by nature... There are many fruits. It is offered by the tree for eating. The tree's not killed. So we accept this philosophy also that a, one animal, one living entity is meant for being food for another living entity. Jivo jivasya jivanam. That we also accept, but that does not mean one living entity is the food for another living entity, that does not mean I can kill my mother, my child... That is not, sir. So at least this must be taken into consideration that cows, innocent, they give us milk, we take its milk, and we kill in regular slaughterhouse, this is not very good thing. It is sinful. Cardinal Danielou: Yes. I understand that. Prabhupada: Yes. Thank you very much. Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct) Yogesvara: Does the fact that Christianity, does the fact that Christianity sanctions eating of meat mean that from the Christian viewpoint, lower species of life do not have a soul like human beings. Cardinal Danielou: Dites en francais. Yogesvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: (French) Yogesvara: (French) Cardinal Danielou: Oui. Yogesvara: He says: "No, that yes, this is the philosophy, that, that below the human level, the soul does not inhabit the body of other species." Cardinal Danielou: The soul, the soul, the soul is, is human soul. In the animal you have some psychologic existence, but not life of spirit with freedom, with mind and with the reality of spirit. But you have the same idea because you said that there is a difference of nature between spiritual creation and the material world. You know, the material world is not of the same essence than the spiritual world. And the man, the man is a part of spiritual world. Prabhupada: No. Our Bhagavad-gita says: sarva-yonisu. "In all species of life, as many forms are there, so the spirit soul is there." This outward body is just like a dress. You may have a very costly dress, and I may have a very shabby, poor dress, but both of us are human being, or living entities. Similarly these different forms of living entities, they are just like different types of dress. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. Just like you are in black dress. I am in saffron dress... Cardinal Danielou: Yellow, yes. Prabhupada: So this is external. But within the dress you are a human being, I am also human being. Similarly, there are eight million four hundred thousands of dresses. There are nine hundred thousand dresses within the water, aquatics. Yogesvara: (translates) Prabhupada: Similarly, two million kinds of dresses of the trees, plants, like that. In this way the Vedic literatures have calculated, there are eight million, four hundred thousand forms of living entity. But they're all living entities, part and parcel of God. Just like one man has got ten sons. Not all of them equally meritorious. Not all. One may be high-court judge. And one may be ordinary clerk in the office. But father, both the high-court judge and the clerk in the office, father claims both of them as son. Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, I agree. Prabhupada: For father, there is no such distinction that: "This high-court judge is very important and the clerk in the office, my son, he's not important." So if the enlightened son, high-court judge, says to the father: "My dear father, your, this son, is useless. Let me cut him and eat." Will the father allow? Yogesvara: (asks in French if this is clear) Cardinal Danielou: Non. Yogesvara: (translates) Prabhupada: Apart from this consideration, at least this morality should be observed that cows, they're our mother. We should not kill at least mothers for eating the flesh. Cardinal Danielou: The difficulty for us is not the idea that it is good for us to respect the life of a cow. The difficulty is the metaphysic reason. You know. Prabhupada: No, metaphysics, not... Cardinal Danielou: It is, it is, it is the idea that all life is parcel of the life of God. You know of this is to us, difficult to admit. We can, there is a very great difference between the life of man who is really called to partake the life of God, and the animal life, who is (French) Yogesvara: Temporary. Cardinal Danielou: No. Without, without, impermanent. Life of man is permanent. Prabhupada: That, that, that difference is due to development of consciousness. The human body, human body, you get developed consciousness. Just like this tree. It is also a living entity, but it's consciousness is not yet fructified. If you cut the tree, it does not resist. But it resists in a very small degree. That is proved by the scientists. The Sir Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta, he's also a very great scientist. He has made machine: when you cut the tree, it feels and it is recorded in the machine. Yogesvara: (translates) Prabhupada: And for the animals we can see, when one kills the animals, it resists, it cries, it makes great sound, horrible. So it is the question of development of consciousness. But the, a soul is there. Cardinal Danielou: But, why, why, why God make some animals who eat other animals? There is a fault in the creation because... It is a fault in the creation? Prabhupada: No. The God is very kind. If you want to eat animals, then He'll give facility, good facility. Just like tiger. You become tiger, and eat animals. Those who are animal eaters, unrestrictedly, God will give him the body of a tiger next life so that he can very freely eat. "Why you maintain slaughterhouse? I give you nails and jaws. Just eat." So they are waiting that life. Yogesvara: Is it clear? Cardinal Danielou: (French) Yogesvara: (translates) Cardinal Danielou: Well, (French). I am very joyful to, to speak, to speak with you. And I offer, if I can, tomorrow go to the, to visit the Temple. Yes, yes. I hope I can tomorrow. Yogesvara: (French) (end) |
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