sábado, 16 de enero de 2010

A response to Hari-kirtana prabhu regarding my article

A response to Hari-kirtana prabhu regarding my article

A response to Hari-kirtana prabhu regarding my article
A response to Hari-kirtana prabhu regarding my article


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1 Unregistered

Dear Hari-sauri Prabhu:

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

At the moment I clicked the “Say It!” button I realized that I had forgotten (AGAIN!) the very valuable instruction given to me years ago by my friend and (when I am exceptionally fortunate) mentor, Lakmsi Nrsimha Prabhu: if you think something’s amiss, always ask questions before you make a comment or a criticism. I should have written to you directly to ask about your sources before publicly offering my own. And your reply shows me that I should take my own advice: though qualified to offer one of many opinions on this controversial area of science as she may be, my friend is a practitioner who does not have the same research credentials as the sources you have cited and therefore does not publish such research herself; offering her name would have done nothing for the reader looking for authoritative published sources. In the interest of brevity I lifted the essense of her reply to me without citing her sources: my objective was not to trump you on sources but simply to demonstrate how one may paint one’s self into a corner by playing the “science” card. Having done more homework than I, you have clearly played the “science” card appropriately so I respectfully fold my hand.

Please accept my sincere expression of gratitude for acknowledging my intent insofar as being careful when citing scientific evidence in support of sastra is concerned and for taking the time to provide all of us with the extensive background material that provided the foundation for your excellent extemporaneous presentation.

Your humbled servant, Hari-kirtana dasa

Comment posted by Hari-kirtana dasa on August 8th, 2006
2 gmittal

Can you refute this based on sastra? I don’t see even any need for this comparison.

Krishna says - “Unfortunately–for them–there are statements where Krishna says ‘stri, sudra and dvija-bandhu’–these classes are all less-intelligent.”

Sudra, dvija-bandhus are less intelligent.
Stri are less intelligent.

In Kali-yuga, most of us are sudra. So, men are less intelligent in Kali-yuga.

Therefore, men and stri both are less intelligent.

Therefore, it is difficult to compare man and woman as both are less intelligent.

Comment posted by gmittal on August 8th, 2006
3 Unregistered

Haribol! PAMHO.

Pardon me for repeating myself from my comments on the original article, but I feel that the topic deserves some clarifications. I hope this is useful.

The main question was differences in intelligence. Intelligence in itself is a debateable and difficult item to quantify scientifically. For example, a questionaire designed to test and quantify intelligence may be skewed to favor men or women, based upon cultural differences, such that one is measuring sexual traits rather than intelligence per se. In some ways, comparing male versus female intelligence is like comparing apples to oranges.

Brain electrical conductivity rates across a neural network have been suggested as an objective measure of intelligence, and it turns out that these data correlate well with standardized IQ test results. There is a consistent and demonstrable difference in male and female physical intelligence, and certainly there are underlying physical differences involved, Kali-yuga notwithstanding. Biochemical differences are effectors upon an already underlying sex-typed brain structure. These work in cooperation, biochemistry and anatomy, and cannot be easily seperated as to which is the main casual factor in expressed behavior.

Nonetheless, rather than utilizing controversial speculation on biochemistry and behavioral effects for preaching, which data are notoriously interpretable to suit one’s thesis, I have presented brief information from IQ studies which are broad- based and widely accepted and repeateable across cultures; ie that there is a wider variance in men’s intelligence relative to the norm as opposed to women’s intelligence. This means that there will be, in a population of 100, several genius level men and several low-IQ men, while women’s intelligence is such that there will be mostly average-level intelligences. Genius and low IQ will be much less frequent than among a similar population of males, regardless of sexual orientation, race, etc. Thus, men will appear to be smarter, as we will have noted the exceptional geniuses, not the averages.

The conclusion is that some men are smarter than women, but also that some are dumber, and that there is more variation amongst males than women. Thus, one can say that indeed, men are smarter than women, at least those in the extremes of the bell curve. They are also dumber. Take your pick for the required “spin”.

HKHR !

Tamoharadasa, MS, Aud. ( C)

Comment posted by Tamoharadasa on August 9th, 2006
4 Hari Sauri dasa

G Mittal has responded:

Krishna says - “Unfortunately–for them–there are statements where Krishna says ‘stri, sudra and dvija-bandhu’–these classes are all less-intelligent.”
1. Sudra, dvija-bandhus are less intelligent.
Stri are less intelligent.
In Kali-yuga, every one is sudra. So, men are less intelligent in Kali-yuga.
Therefore, men and stri both are less intelligent.
Therefore, it is difficult to compare man and woman as both are less intelligent.
We may find many men claiming that they are great. But honestly speaking, in Kali-yuga men are at the level of sudra of dvapara, treta and sata-yuga. Therefore, not only women but also men are less intelligent.

Here’s my reply:

This sounds like good logic, but unfortunately Srila Prabhupada doesn’t agree with it.

What is G Mittal (sorry you haven’t given you first name) saying here? That men and women in Kali-yuga are in fact equal in intelligence?

Here’s my own logic on the matter:

1) Srila Prabhupada was not talking about other yugas, he was talking about Kali-yuga. He didn’t say that in the three previous yugas men were more intelligent than women, and in this age, everyone is less-intelligent so men and women are the same.

2) As men have lost their intelligence by the onslaught of Kali-yuga, women have suffered a corresponding loss also. So the comparative difference remains.

3) Even though sudra men are less-intelligent, sudra women are more so. Similarly, brahmana men are more intelligent than brahmana women etc.

For example in the purport to Srimad-Bhägavatam 6.17.34-35 Srila Prabhupada says: “Thus Lord Siva tried to convince his wife, Parvati, that her cursing of Citraketu was not very sensible.
Here is a difference between male and female that exists even in the higher statuses of life-in fact, even between Lord Siva and his wife. Lord Siva could understand Citraketu very nicely, but Parvati could not. Thus even in the higher statuses of life there is a difference between the understanding of a male and that of a female. It may be clearly said that the understanding of a woman is always inferior to the understanding of a man. In the Western countries there is now agitation to the effect that man and woman should be considered equal, but from this verse it appears that woman is always less intelligent than man.”

In my article I attempted to provide some scientific findings to support Srila Prabhupäda’s statements. It does exist and when people become more objective and honest, they will accept it.
As his followers it is our duty to uphold his statements, not use information that he himself has given us, and by our own logic arrive at a different conclusion. That will not help us.

Your humble servant,
Hari-sauri dasa

Comment posted by Hari Sauri dasa on August 10th, 2006
5 Unregistered

How is it possible to state something as axiomatic with proof based on scientific data? Even if one poseses a cache of scientific data, the understanding of that data is subjective, open for debate and tested. Take for instance Hari Sauri Prabhu’s example. He produces scientific data that supports the study of oxytocin in women. That women produce oxytocin, and that it causes certain behavior is definatley supported with data. However, the affect it has on general intelligence isn’t axiomatic, and is not indicated in the given references. It may be that this is Hari Sauri Prabhu’s logical assumption based on his understanding of the scientific data and scripture. That’s perfectly fine as long as he’s not caliming it to be anything but that. Using scientific examples to point out the difference between the male and female brain/body can be useful in certain preaching situations and farily self evident. But to use scienctific theory in support of an axiomatic truth, contradicts its potency as axiomatic.

Comment posted by Jan Ardan on August 11th, 2006
6 Braja Sevaki

Hari sauri prabhu, in your above comment you raise a point that I’d like to clarify: for me there is no hardship accepting the basic principle that men are more intelligent than women. However there’s on thing I can’t quite get. You wrote:

3) Even though sudra men are less-intelligent, sudra women are more so. Similarly, brahmana men are more intelligent than brahmana women etc.

Working from this basis, I’m hard pressed to conclude that a brahmana woman is less intelligent than a sudra man, or a ksatriya woman is less intelligenet than a sudra man, based on the principle of “women are generally less intelligent than men.” Does sastra make any reference to this? It’s as plain as day to me that women with ksatriya-like qualities, and those with brahminical qualities, are more intelligent than a man with predominantly sudra qualities. It doesn’t make sense to me that a woman who is trained in spiritual culture and scripture (such as a brahmana woman) or a woman with a sharp intellect and strong leadership qualities is immediately considered “less” intelligent than a sudra man, who often doesn’t have the wherewithall to scratch himself without supervision, what to speak of doing anything substantial :) And I’m speaking about women acting within their varna and ashram: not about women who step out of the protection of the varnasrama system and assume the role of Prime Ministers of countries, or other such examples.

Perhaps you can address this point?

Comment posted by Braja Sevaki on August 12th, 2006
7 Unregistered

“Prabhupada: In, actually, in Bengal, Bengal has lost its original culture. In other provinces the brahmana class, they are keeping very strictly the original culture. Even a brahmana would not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife, because woman is considered sudra. The woman, when she becomes the wife of a brahmana, then she is called brahmani, but she’s not offered brahminical culture. She remains as sudra. So therefore a strict brahmana does not accept foodstuff prepared by his wife. Still there are in U.P. The wife will arrange for cooking, and he’ll sit down and cook dal, capatis. Then he will eat, and whatever remains, that is there, that will be taken by her. But he will not take foodstuff cooked by his even wife.” Room Conversation–August 2, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm)

Comment posted by Babaji on August 14th, 2006
8 Braja Sevaki

Yes, we know women are included in the sudra category. But you’re forgetting that so are all residents of Kali-yuga, so what does Prabhupada even mean by what he says above, when elsewhere he states clearly that all who take birth in Kaliyuga are sudra?. I don’t think small, out of context quotes from Folio, which anyone can snip, are really what constitute answers. I can easily snip the one where Prabhupada says, “It is clear the women are the intelligence in this movement” and send you all into a tailspin :)

Comment posted by Braja Sevaki on August 15th, 2006
9 Unregistered

Nice quote Babaji. Now the husbands will end up doing all the cooking :)

One point to note - the Lord ate food cooked by women, e.g. Sarvabhauma’s wife, Sathira Mata. And of course, so did Srila Prabhupada. (Phew)

Comment posted by Krishna Dharma on August 15th, 2006
10 Braja Sevaki

…and Srila Prabhupada had women cooking for deities, something that had the caste brahmanas reeling, no doubt ….

Comment posted by Braja Sevaki on August 17th, 2006




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