ISKCON Pandharpur 08 W iskcondesiretree
ISKCON Pandharpur 09 W iskcondesiretree
ISKCON Pandharpur 10 W iskcondesiretree
"Unlimited is not Impersonal" Bombay, April 4, 1974
Giriraja: yat tvayoktam vacas tena moho 'yam vigato mama [Bg. 11.1] "Arjuna said: I have heard Your instruction on confidential spiritual matters, which You have so kindly delivered unto me, and my illusion is now dispelled." Prabhupada: There must be the word meaning. Hare Krsna. Giriraja: Arjuna uvaca, Arjuna said. [break] Prabhupada: ...friend yesterday. Dr. Patel: Sanskrit. Prabhupada: Ah. So let us begin from the Eleventh so that word meaning they may understand. Dr. Patel: mad anugrahaya paramam guhyam adhyatma-samjnitam yat tvayoktam vacas tena moho 'yam vigato mama [Bg. 11.1] Prabhupada: Now try to understand the word meaning. Giriraja: (reads synonyms) Dr. Patel: It is in relation to the previous, this thing, that Tenth that He showed you all the vibhutis in various conditions of the creation, and by understanding the various vibhutis, Arjuna said that "I have practically got disillusioned by this explanation." That is what he said. Is it all right? Prabhupada: Yes. Now it is clear. Any question on this? Dr. Patel: All right. Shall I go on? Prabhupada: No. So what is the translation? Giriraja: "Arjuna said: I have heard Your instruction on confidential spiritual matters, which You have so kindly delivered unto me." Dr. Patel: There you see here the last, last... [break] Prabhupada: ...means, now we have discussed Tenth [break], what is the confidential? Satsvarupa: About Krsna Himself. Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: This is the confidential. Vistabhyaham idam krtsnam ekamsena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42]. That is the most confidential. "Only by one of My this thing, the whole jagat is being supported. Why do you want to talk about nonsense of so many things? Only one thing is important and that is this." Prabhupada: So... Yes. So unless one is convinced that Krsna is the original cause of all causes, sarva karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1], he has not understood the confidential subject matter of Bhagavad-gita. That is the con... Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Unless one comes to this conclusion, that "Krsna is the origin of everything," aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate, iti matva bhajante mam, he cannot be fixed up in the worship or serving Krsna. This conclusion must be reached. Dr. Patel: The next word is telling the same thing as you say. bhavapyayau hi bhutanam srutau vistaraso maya tvattah kamala-patraksa mahatmyam api cavyayam [Bg. 11.2] That "Everything is originating from You and..." Prabhupada: Now the opposite. This is the conclusion, that one has to understand that Krsna is the cause of all causes, He is the origin of everything. So why do they divert their attention to other subjects? Dr. Patel: Because of the maya. Prabhupada: Yes. And what is that maya? Dr. Patel: That Krsna is... [break] Giriraja: Krsna is an ordinary human being. Prabhupada: Yes. Yasomatinandana: They think that "Krsna's body is just like mine." Prabhupada: This is Mayavada. This has been explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that matir na krsne paratah svato va. Dr. Patel: That's right. It was in me. Any of your ideas, it is, other than Krsna, is maya. Prabhupada: Please let me explain. Matir na krsne. No, just explain. Matir na krsne paratah svato va. Paratah means "from other sources." Just like I am explaining. That is paratah. And svato means... Dr. Patel: Means Krsna. Prabhupada: I will explain everything. Svato means personally, sva. Matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam. Or mithah. There are three sources of understanding. Dr. Patel: What is that mithah? Prabhupada: Mithah means just like we are studying altogether. Mithah means in congregation. Abhipadyeta grha-vratanam. Dr. Patel: Of the embodied people. Prabhupada: No, no. Grha-vratanam means those who are attracted to this... Grha means this worldly family life. Grha-vrata. Grha. Grha-vrata. So those who have decided that "We shall remain in this grha, for them, either personally or from others or by conference, the matir na krsne." Dr. Patel: They do not have that mind fixed on Krsna. Prabhupada: Yes, they cannot. Why they cannot? Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. This grha-vrata means their sense enjoyment. This grhastha life is a concession for sense gratification, license. Actually, it is not required. Sex life is not required. But those who cannot avoid the sex life, they are given some license, "All right, you enjoy sex life, marry one woman, remain as faithful husband and wife." So unless one determines that "This is not my life, grha-vrata..." Apasyatam atma-tattvam grhesu grha-medhinam [SB 2.1.2]. In another place it is said also, by Sukadeva Gosvami, one who cannot understand what is his self-interest, apasyatam atma-tattvam, actually what is needed, what is the need of the soul, grhesu grha-medhinam... The grha-vrata and grhamedhi, these two words are for persons who are too much attached to this worldly life. So this determination already is there, that "Krsna is the original cause of everything." Iti matva bhajante mam. One who understands this perfectly well, he can be engaged in the matter of rendering service to Krsna. Otherwise it is very difficult. Matir na krsne paratah svato va. Dr. Patel: Swami Narayana has answered in this way, that any of your matir... Prabhupada: Swami Narayana... Dr. Patel: No, no, I speak. Any buddhi other than giving Krsna is maya. Anything you think other than Krsna is maya. Prabhupada: Then when he thinks that "I am incarnation of Krsna,"... Dr. Patel: He has not said. Prabhupada: ...it is not maya? Dr. Patel: He had not said so. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Dr. Patel: If tomorrow these boys say that you are incarnation of God, is it your fault? Prabhupada: Huh? Dr. Patel: That is what it is. Tomorrow these boys say, after you pass away, that you are incarnation of God. It is not your fault. Like that, people will say so. I have not said so. Prabhupada: But that is going on. The other day one, another Swami Narayana came. I ask him "Why there is no picture of Krsna?" Dr. Patel: That we will discuss after... Prabhupada: He also said like that. "No, because..." Dr. Patel: Why do you want to divert? Prabhupada: Yes. You diverted. You brought Swami Narayana. We don't accept Swami Narayana as authority. We don't accept that. Chandobhai: Let us hear the guru. Prabhupada: Yes. Chandobhai: Then what happens further? Dr. Patel: Shall I read further? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: bhavapyayau hi bhutanam srutau vistaraso maya tvattah kamala-patraksa mahatmyam api cavyayam [Bg. 11.2] Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: evam etad yathattha tvam atmanam paramesvara drastum icchami te rupam aisvaram purusottama [Bg. 11.3] He wants to see His real form. Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is not real form. Real form is Krsna. Dr. Patel: Aisvaram rupam. Prabhupada: This is a form for less intelligent. Those who are thinking "The God must be horizontal form. God, how He can be a human-like form?" God is great, so he is thinking of greatness of God. Somebody thinks that, according to his own idea. Greatness means they have got idea, "The sky is the greatest." So God must be of the form like sky. Yes. So what is the...? Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: O lotus-eyed one, I have heard from You in detail about the appearance and disappearance of every living entity, as realized through Your inexhaustible glories." (reads next synonyms) "O greatest of all personalities, O supreme form, though I see here before me Your actual position, yet I wish to see how You have entered into this cosmic manifestation." Prabhupada: Entered. So just like it is to be understood. He's very intelligent. Now, I am... As soul, my magnitude is described. What is that? Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. Kesa agra, the tip of the hair, divide into hundred parts. And again take that one part and again divide into hundred parts. Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. Now, it is simply, it is to be imagined. Kalpitasya. Jiva-bhagah sa vijneyah. That is the magnitude of the jiva. Now, that magnitude of jiva has entered in this body or in the elephant's body. Now, which is important, the body is important or that small particle is important? Dr. Patel: Small particle is important. Prabhupada: Ah. Therefore those who are materialistic persons, they are amazed with the huge body of this universe. But Arjuna is saying that "On account of Your entering..." As this body has developed on account of entering, that minute particle or spiritual spark, similarly, there are innumerable universes. All these universes, they have developed. (aside:) Hare Krsna, Jaya. [break] ...Krsna's entering as Garbhodakasayi Visnu. That is explained in the last chapter. athava bahunaitena kim jnatena tavarjuna vistabhyaham idam krstnam ekamsena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42] By His one plenary portion, by entering into this material world, so gigantic form is there. Therefore they cannot understand that how Krsna, just like a human being, he can be more important than this gigantic cosmic manifestation. Dr. Patel: Shall I read further? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: manyase yadi tac chakyam maya drastum iti prabho yogesvara tato me tvam darsayatmanam avyayam [BG. 11.4] Prabhupada: So darsayam, darsaya. "Now, how You have, I mean to say, manifested yourself in this cosmic, gigantic cosmic manifestation?" So if it is possible, kindly... So the point is: this gigantic cosmic manifestation is dependent on Krsna, not that Krsna is one of the product of this gigantic manifestation. Giriraja: (reads synonyms) (Prabhupada interrupts) Prabhupada: Here Krsna is addressed, "Yogesvara," because the yogic power, that is estimated very much important by the ordinary class of men. So He is the master of all yogic power. Just like here, that gold maker? Giriraja: Sai Baba? Prabhupada: Sai Baba. He is showing little yogic aisvarya. But people are, because they do not know, they are not aware of Krsna, they are taking him as God. You see? Giriraja: (reads rest of synonyms for this verse) "Translation: If you think that I am able to behold Your cosmic form, O my Lord, O master of all mystic power, then kindly show me that universal self." Prabhupada: Now, here is the description of how God manifests. So unless one reads Bhagavad-gita carefully, they will be misled by this avatara, that avatara, that avatara. You see? Dr. Patel: Shall I read? sri bhagavan uvaca pasya me partha rupani sataso 'tha sahasrasah nana-vidhani divyani nana-varnakrtini ca [Bg. 11.5] Pasyadityan... Prabhupada: No. One after another. Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: The Blessed Lord said: My dear Arjuna, O son of Prtha, behold now My opulences, hundreds of thousands of varied divine forms, multi-colored like the sea." Prabhupada: This is another instruction. That I explained, that before accepting a so-called incarnation of God, one should ask him to show that "How you are God?" But they do not ask him. A group of persons... Because he is accepted by a group of persons, not by all... There are so many avataras. But who knows them? Dr. Patel: Shall I read? Prabhupada: Let us understand it. Don't be anxious to go forward. This is the..., that... Suppose a man declares himself that "I am avatara." So intelligent man should test him, how he is avatara. We accept Krsna or Lord Ramacandra for their uncommon activities. But what is the uncommon activities, so many avataras? Simply being praised by a group of persons. That's all. Yes. Dr. Patel: Pasyadityan vasun rudran asvinau marutas tatha [BG. 11.6]. Prabhupada: Now, first of all, he's saying that pasyadityan. Adityan, plural number. Not only one, plural number. Adityan means the Surya... Dr. Patel: Surya and all those twelve sons. Prabhupada: Yes, yes, adityan. So here they cannot estimate the influence of one Aditya, and here he is showing all the Adityas. Dr. Patel: Within Him. Prabhupada: Within Him. That is Yogesvara. Dr. Patel: All adityans, vasuns, rudran, asvinau and the Marut. Bahuny adrsta-purvani pasyascaryani bharata. Prabhupada: Yes. Giriraja: (reads synonyms Bg. 11.6 up to:) "adrsta -- that you have not heard or seen;" Prabhupada: Yes. Even which Arjuna did not hear before, that was also shown. What was heard by him formerly, that was also shown and unheard of, unseen, that was also. Giriraja: (reads rest of synonyms) "Translation: O best of the Bharatas, see here the different manifestations of Adityas, Rudras and all the demigods. Behold the many things which no one has ever seen or heard before." Dr. Patel: ihaikastham jagat krtsnam pasyadya sa-caracaram mama dehe gudakesa yac canyad drastum icchasi [Bg. 11.7] Prabhupada: So this is, this is... You can... Mama deha. So the so-called incarnations of God, they should show in their body all these things. They must be accepted by the sastra that he is avatara. Otherwise, why so cheap avatara, we shall accept? Giriraja: (reads synonyms) Prabhupada: (interrupting) Altogether. Dr. Patel: Krtsnam means all, complete. Prabhupada: Yes, so that means there are innumerable universes and that was exhibited by Krsna in His boyhood. Giriraja: (continues synonyms) "adya-immediately;" (etc.) Prabhupada: What the modern scientists will say, that the..., all the universes were shown in the body of Krsna. So what is the, I mean to say, what is called, action, reaction, reaction of the modern scientists? Giriraja: They don't believe. Dr. Patel: Even they are now trying to find out stars further and further with a bigger and bigger... Prabhupada: They cannot see even one universe, and here it is said that "All the universes, innumerable universes." So what these...? Satsvarupa: Their reaction is: "Simply because it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita does not mean it actually happened." They don't think it happened just because it is written here. Prabhupada: No, no, happened or not happened. But you have no estimation, even one universe. You cannot say like that because you are a fool still. Even though it did not happen in the body of Krsna, but you have no estimation, you cannot know what is the sun-god or sun planet or moon planet. You cannot go there. So what is the value of your knowledge? If the statement of Bhagavad-gita has no meaning, then what is the meaning of your scientific knowledge? You are not perfect. So how you can say? Because you are imperfect, so you cannot say against Bhagavad-gita, which is accepted by all the acaryas. Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya... Don't be in hurry. Just finish one word. That is sufficient. Dr. Patel: Oh yes. Prabhupada: Without understanding, if you follow like a storm, that is no use. That is no use. Slow, but sure. Go slow... And that is the defect in the modern. If somebody can recite Bhagavad-gita like storm, it is to be understood he has perfected himself. No. Let him explain at least one word of Bhagavad-gita. That is wanted. Slow, but sure. That is going on. The professional Bhagavata reciters, they jump over Krsna's rasa-lila. The rascal does not explain the first line of Bhagavatam, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. It requires many years to understand that one word, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], and he jumps over, "Bhagavata recitation means rasa-lila." That is going on. That has spoiled the whole atmosphere. Therefore that rascal has been able to challenge that Krsna, that, what is that, rural? Satsvarupa: "Popular rural god with sixteen thousand wives." Prabhupada: That's it. He does not know what is Krsna. And he is writing about Krsna, "rural boy with sixteen thousand..." First of all, he does not know that when Krsna was rural boy in Vrndavana he had no sixteen thousand wives. You see. Still, these rascals say, "rural boy with sixteen thousand wives." Dr. Patel: When He had this rasa dance, he was only seven years. Prabhupada: No, apart from that, actually, He had sixteen thousand wives when He was in Dvaraka, but these rascals say, "Rural boy." "Rural boy" means when He was in Vrndavana. So he does not know even the history, and he is trying to write about Krsna. This is going on. And that is the proof. Krsna had sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God, because you cannot maintain even one wife at the present moment. So He maintained sixteen thousand wives. That is the proof that He is God. That is the proof. But they will not take that side. They will take in other way, "Oh, this is all stories and fictitious." That's all. Param bhavam ajananto [Bg. 9.11]. They do not know. They do not know what is Krsna, and they try to write upon Krsna, to imitate Krsna. "Krsna was an avatara. Therefore I am also avatara." These things are not very good. Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: Whatever you wish to see can be seen all at once in this body. This universal form can show you all that you now desire, as well as whatever you may desire in the future. Everything is here completely." Prabhupada: That is avatara. So nobody can compare. In the Vedic literature it is said, na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate na tat-samas cabhyadhikas ca drsyate. Nobody can be equal to Him. Sama, sama means equal. Na tat-samas cabhyadhikas ca drsyate: "Nobody is greater than Him, nobody is equal to Him." That is Krsna. So as soon as one claims that "I am also Krsna," he is a bogus immediately. Dr. Patel: Shall I go further? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: na tu mam sakyase drastum anenaiva sva-caksusa divyam dadami te caksuh pasya me yogam aisvaram [Bg. 11.8] Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "drastum -- to see..." Prabhupada: How one can see? Suppose I am seeing this material sky. I cannot see what are there, not even the stars at the present moment, although we know there are millions and trillions of stars. So this is my power of seeing. So how can I see all the universes in the body of..., unless he gets a special power from Krsna to see. Giriraja: (completes synonyms) "Translation: But you cannot see Me with your present eyes. Therefore I give to you divine eyes by which you can behold My mystic opulence." Prabhupada: Now, this is Krsna's power. Let us understand. A teeny aeroplane is floating in the air, and it is making so much sound. And millions and trillions of planets are floating, there is no sound. There is no sound. [break] ...if you take it and fix it up... What is that? One thousand or more than, one thousand miles. Dr. Patel: A second. Prabhupada: No, no. This earth, per hour. Dr. Patel: Earth is rotating and also going round... It has got two movements. Prabhupada: Anyway, but we cannot understand any movement, but it is moving. The force is there. Dr. Patel: Shall I go further? Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: sanjaya uvaca evam uktva tato rajan maha-yogesvaro harih darsayamasa parthaya paramam rupam aisvaram [Bg. 11.9] Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "tatah-thereafter..." Prabhupada: Just see. Sanjaya was speaking in the room to Dhrtarastra and he said that "Now He showed." That means he was seeing. That is another television. Another television. That television is unknown now. Santah sadaiva hrdayesu. Premanjana-churrita-bhakti-vilocanena. This is also television. The television machine is within the heart. One can see everything, provided he has learned the art how to see, that television within the heart. Giriraja: (finishes synonyms) "Translation: Sanjaya said: O King, speaking thus, the Supreme, the Lord of all mystic power, the Personality of Godhead, displayed His universal form to Arjuna." Dr. Patel: Shall I read? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: aneka-vaktra-nayanam anekadbhuta-darsanam aneka-divyabharanam divyanekodyatayudham divya-malyambara-dharam divya-gandhanulepanam sarvascaramayam devam anantam visvato-mukham [Bg. 11.10-11] Prabhupada: So even in the universal form, there is personality. Divya-malya, divya-gandha, kiritina, dressed, well-dressed. Well-dressed is possible not in the imperson. If you want to dress somebody, he must be a person. You cannot dress in the sky. "Here is helmet, here is garland." Where you put? (laughs) So in the universal form also there is personality. Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "abharanam-ornaments; divya-divine..." Prabhupada: You have to understand. Giriraja: "Aneka-various..." Prabhupada: Aneka. So here is the word, aneka. Ana eka, "more than one." So what is that aneka? Dr. Patel: Everything, aneka. Prabhupada: That's all right. Dr. Patel: Innumerable you can say. Chandobhai: I mean (indistinct Sanskrit) Prabhupada: Aneka, that is confirmed in the Vedas, eka purusam. That is aneka. That is aneka. Dr. Patel: Eka purusam. Prabhupada: Yes. Although He is one, He can manifest. He is exiting, not manifest. He is existing in aneka. And what is that aneka? Aneka means expansion of svamsa... That is... Therefore we require reference from many sastras. In the Varaha Purana this aneka explained -- svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa, expansion of the Visnu-tattva. Visnu-tattva. Ramadi-murtisu kala niyamena tisthan [Bs. 5.39]. He has expanded Himself in so many incarnations, ramadi, like Rama, not this loafer class. Ramadi-murtisu kala niyamena tisthan [Bs. 5.39]. This is aneka. Another aneka-mamaivamso jiva-bhuta [Bg. 15.7]. They are also aneka. Anantaya kalpate. So all the Visnu forms and all the living entity forms, altogether, he was able to see in the body of Krsna. That is aneka. Yes, go on. Giriraja: (continues synonyms to:) "malya-..." Prabhupada: Aneka. There are aneka ayuddhas. Every Visnu form has four symbolic representation -- sankha-cakra-gada-padma -- and they are differently situated. People do not know it. They... It begins. Just like here sankha, then next, cakra, then next, gada, then padma. Then here begins padma, here begins sankha, in so many. Chandobhai: Differently. Dr. Patel: Combination, combination. Prabhupada: Yes, changing. These are in the sastra, siddhartha-samhita, how many forms are there. This is aneka. Not evasively, that "All is one." No. There are so many, so many varieties, variegated, all spiritual, aneka. Giriraja: "Malya-garlands..." Prabhupada: These things are there. Each of them were garlanded, had helmets, had, I mean to say, ornaments. Everything aneka. Dr. Patel: Malyambara-dharam. Prabhupada: Yes. Dress, everything, garment, all varieties. Giriraja: (continues synonyms to:) "divya-divine..." Prabhupada: Divine. That means they are not material. Krsna's dress, Krsna's helmet, Krsna's bedding, Krsna's shoes, they are all expansion of Lord Sesa. They are not material. Giriraja: (continues synonyms to:) "ascaryamayam-wonderful..." Prabhupada: Although this is virat-rupa, still, there are aneka, many varieties. And each one of them is personally described. Yes. Giriraja: (continues synonyms to end) "Translation: Arjuna saw in that universal form unlimited mouths and unlimited eyes." Prabhupada: Unlimited mouths. The unlimited person. As soon as you say, "unlimited mouths," means unlimited person. That is not imperson. Even in His aneka-murti He is person. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita in the Second Chapter, that all we remained person in the past, we are persons at present, and we shall continue to become persons in the future. So this impersonal description of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is for the persons who do not understand what is God. Giriraja: "It was all wondrous. The form was decorated with divine, dazzling ornaments and arrayed..." Prabhupada: Again personality. And where do they get the idea of impersonal, even in the virat-rupa? How do they get? What is the authority? Chandobhai: Gopis are personal. Prabhupada: No, no, everything is being described as person. So where is the question of imperson? Even in His aneka murti, in the virat form, universal form, there are persons. At least from Bhagavad-gita, nobody can prove that the Absolute Truth, God, is imperson. That is not possible. But still, they are doing that. That means they do not understand what is Bhagavad-gita, although they are very much proud of regular scholar of Bhagavad-gita. So am I right or wrong? Let us discuss. Chandobhai: He is both personal and impersonal. Prabhupada: No, no, why? Dr. Patel: You are right. Prabhupada: No, here it is described person. Although the virat-rupa is there... Virat-rupa is considered... Chandobhai: Virat-rupa is personal. Prabhupada: Personal. So but... Indian man: Krsna has also declared... Dr. Patel: For personal communication... Indian man: Krsna says that I am both personal, impersonal, and I am above that. Prabhupada: No, no. That imperson does not mean that He is not spiritually person. Impersonal means He does not become... That... This description of person, they are not these material persons. Chandobhai: Ah, then it's all right. Spiritual personality, everyone believes. That's correct. Then there is no rift. Spiritual personality... [break] Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah [Bg. 7.24]. They, these Mayavadis, they think, "Originally the Absolute Truth is avyakta. Now He has assumed, Krsna, the form, accepting a body of maya." This is called Mayavada. Abuddhayah. They have no intelligence that spiritually the Lord is always vyakti, a person. Either Narayana, Visnu, Krsna, any way, He is always person. Giriraja: "He was garlanded gloriously and there were many scents smeared over His body." Prabhupada: It is all personal description: "Dress, ornaments, flowers, garlands, scents." This is offered to the person. Giriraja: "All was magnificent, all-expanding, unlimited. This was seen by Arjuna." Prabhupada: This is spiritual. Unlimited. Yes. Dr. Patel: Shall I read? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: divi surya-sahasrasya bhaved yugapad utthita yadi bhah sadrsi sa syad bhasas tasya mahatmanah [Bg. 11.12] Giriraja: (reads synonyms) (end) >>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- April 4, 1974, Bombay
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