Srila Prabhupada speaks on:"Arguments Smashed"

"Arguments Smashed" Bombay, April 5, 1974 listen  Take a test Prabhupada: Dr. Patel: Which sloka, Giriraja, 19? Giriraja: No, 23. Dr. Patel: rupam mahat te bahu-vaktra-netram maha-baho bahu-bahuru-padam bahudaram bahu-damstra-karalam drstva lokah pravyathitas tathaham "All are getting frightened of You, even myself." Prabhupada: No, the thing is that bahu-vaktram bahudaram. That means bahu persons, many persons, all persons. What is that? Giriraja: "Rupam-form." Prabhupada: Form. First thing is form. Although virat, but it includes so many forms. Then? Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "bahu-arms..." Prabhupada: Arms, He is exhibiting many. The same formula. Eko bahu syam. (indistinct) Then? Giriraja: (Continues reading synonyms to:) "bahu-damstra-..." Prabhupada: "Many bellies" means a personal form. Damstra karalam. Giriraja: (finishes synonyms) "Translation: O mighty-armed one, all the planets with their demigods are disturbed at seeing Your many faces, eyes, arms, bellies and legs, and Your terrible teeth, and as they are disturbed, so am I." Prabhupada: Kala-rupa, kala-rupa. This is called kala-rupa. Then? Yes. Dr. Patel: nabhah sprsam diptam aneka-varnam vyattananam dipta-visala-netram drstva hi tvam pravyathitantaratma dhrtim na vindami samam ca visno Giriraja: (reads synonyms) Dr. Patel: At the same time, all the gods were seeing the same thing? Prabhupada: Visnu, this word has been used, "all-pervading, all-pervading forms." It does not mean that because all-pervading, there is no form. Form is there always. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: damstra-karalani ca te mukhani drstvaiva kalanala-sannibhani diso na jane na labhe ca sarma prasida devesa jagan-nivasa Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: O Lord of lords, O refuge of the worlds, please be gracious to me. I cannot keep my balance seeing Your blazing deathlike faces and awful teeth. In all directions I am bewildered." Dr. Patel: There is no comment on that. ami ca tvam dhrtarastrasya putrah sarve sahaivanipala-sanghaih bhismo dronah suta-putras tathasau sahasmadiyair api yodha-mukhyaih vaktrani te tvaramana visanti damstra-karalani bhayanakani [break] Prabhupada: ...earth, earth, and pala means kings. Protectors, raja-pala. Dr. Patel: Our raja-pala, Giri. [break] Giriraja: "All the sons of Dhrtarastra along with their allied kings, and Bhisma, Drona and Karna, and all our soldiers are rushing into Your mouths, their heads smashed by Your fearful teeth. I see that some are being crushed between Your teeth as well." Prabhupada: [break] ...leaders, they are entering into the mouth of the kala just like insects. "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" Although within their lifetime they were very, very big leaders, but they are entering into the mouth of the kala just like insects and flies. That's it. [break] ...plans, but there is no plan how to stop... Dr. Patel: Death. Prabhupada: Yes. No, how to stop this forceful entering into the mouth of the kala. Just like a very good example: When there is fire and all the insects and flies, "Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat! Phat!" That's it. Attracted by the beauty. Similarly, all these big, big leaders, being attracted, bahir-artha-maninah... They have been described in Bhagavata, bahir-artha-maninah. They are thinking this beautiful nature as everything, "There is no other thing." Dr. Patel: There is very good description in Twelfth..., these things. [break] Giriraja: "I see all people rushing with full speed into your mouths as moths dash into a blazing fire." [break] Prabhupada: The doctors also will enter. (laughter) Not only the patient, but the doctors also. Don't think that doctors will be excused. (laughter) No, no. That is not possible. Dr. Patel: Shall I read further? Prabhupada: Yes, yes. [break] Dr. Patel: Just like... Prabhupada: He was thinking, "Oh, why shall I kill?" Dr. Patel: "If I don't fight, they will live." Prabhupada: Yes. It is already planned. So even if you don't kill, it is there already. Giriraja: (reads synonyms for following verse:) "Translation: The Blessed Lord said: Time I am, destroyer of the worlds, and I have come to engage all people. With the exception of you, the Pandavas, all the soldiers here on both sides will be slain." Dr. Patel: Shall I read further, sir, or you want to comment? Prabhupada: Yes. The process is going on. Although we have got so many plans to save, nobody can be saved. The destination, the bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19], that will go on. Simply vita-raga-bhaya-krodha man-maya mam upasritah [Bg. 4.10], they will be saved. Otherwise all finished. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? [break] Giriraja: "Translation: Therefore get up and prepare to fight. After conquering your enemies, you will enjoy a flourishing kingdom. They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you, O Savyasacin, can be but an instrument in the fight." Prabhupada: So this is very important verse, that by kala, by time, due course of time, everything will be destroyed. So our duty is uttistha... Dr. Patel: Fall in line with His wish. Prabhupada: Yes. He wishes sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. This is our duty, not that "I have got that duty, that duty, that duty." That duty, that duty will not save you. They will be destroyed. Dehapatya-kalatradi. This is explained in Bhagavata. dehapatya-kalatradisu atma-sainyesv asatsv api pramattah tasya nidhanam pasyann api na pasyati  [SB 2.1.4] We are attached, deha, this body. Apatya, children. Dehapatya-kalatradi, wife. Kala... Because we increase through the wife, kalatradi. Dehapatya-kalatradisu atma-sainyesu. We are thinking that "They are my soldiers. They will save me from the clutches of death." Dehapatya-kalatradisv atma..., asatsv api. They are not permanent. So although they are not permanent, they will be killed, I am thinking, "They will save me, my soldiers." So pramatta, this thought comes on account of becoming pramatta. Prakrsta-rupena matta, mad. Yes. Pramatta tasya nidhanam. The plan is: everyone will be destroyed. Tasya nidhanam pasyann api na pasyati. Although he has got experience that "So many relatives, so many friends, so many family men, they have all died, they could not save me, and what these, my wife, children and others, will save me?" But because he is pramatta, pasyann api na pasyati, even though he sees, he does not see. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead, sir? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: Dronam ca bhismam ca jaya... [break] Prabhupada: ...hesitating to kill Drona or Bhisma. They are teachers. But it is duty. Krsna wanted. Because they were on the wrong side, they must be killed. That was Krsna's desire. So he should execute. Jaya. [break] Giriraja: "The Blessed Lord said: All the great warriors -- Drona, Bhisma, Jayadratha, Karna -- are already destroyed. Simply fight, and you will vanquish your enemies." Prabhupada: So this is our duty. Just like in this particular case, about our Krsna consciousness movement, that so many people are giving me the credit. Actually, I have no credit. It is already desired or it is already planned that "This time in Western countries, this sankirtana movement..." So it is our duty. Similarly, our only duty is to carry out the order of the Supreme. Other things is already done by Him. So if we abide by the orders of the Supreme, then we get the credit. We should know that. So our only thing is to abide by the... That is... Another place, Bhagavad-gita, is explained vyavasayatmika buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana bahu-sakha hy anantas ca buddhayo 'vyavasayinam  [Bg. 2.41] So those who are vyavasaya, niscayatmika-buddhi, their duty is to carry out the orders of the Supreme. And the Supreme is giving order in two ways: as caittya-guru from within and as spiritual master. Inside and outside. Dr. Patel: Consult your atma within in action. Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore, to receive the order of Krsna, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12], one should approach the bona fide representative of Krsna and take order from Him what to do, and that is his only duty. That is his only duty. Otherwise he will manufacture so many duties. That will not be helpful to him. That niscayatmika-buddhih, that has been very nicely explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, that "Whatever order I receive from my guru, that is my life and soul. I don't mind whether I'll be liberated or not, whether I will be successful or not. That is not my concern. My only concern is to see whether I am factually, faithfully carrying out the order of my guru." This is... Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura notes. So these things are being explained in the same way that "You do not think which is right or wrong. You simply... I have asked you to fight. You go on fighting and take the credit. That's all." Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead, sir? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: Sanjaya uvaca... [break] Giriraja: "Sanjaya said to Dhrtarastra: O King, after hearing these words from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Arjuna trembled, fearfully offered obeisances with folded hands and began, falteringly, to speak as follows." Prabhupada: So without seeing visva-rupa, simply by abiding by the orders of Krsna, if we act, then there is no question of trembling. Dr. Patel: So we must not try to see the visva-rupa, to tremble. Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: arjuna uvaca sthane hrsikesa tava prakirtya jagat prahrsyaty anurajyate ca raksamsi bhitani diso dravanti sarve namasyanti ca siddha-sanghah [break] Giriraja: "O Hrsikesa, the world becomes joyful upon hearing Your name, and thus everyone becomes attached to You. Although the perfected beings offer You their respectful homage, the demons are afraid, and they flee here and there. All this is rightly done." [break] Prabhupada: Siddha, there is a Siddha-loka. So they can fly from one planet to another without any machine, siddha-sangah. Means the asta-siddhi yogas, they have got naturally. Dr. Patel: All asta-siddhis, they have got. Prabhupada: Yes. They are called siddha, Siddha-loka. Just like here if anyone wants to walk over the water, he requires to acquire so much mystic power. You see? Some of the yogis. But you will find one bird, skylark, one swan, he is very easily doing. Dr. Patel: They have siddhas from the birth. Prabhupada: So they are trying to get that siddha, the perfection, by so much yogic process, but another living entity, without understanding any yogic process, can do that. So these things are not very great gains. There are... In different planets there are different living entities. Just like we cannot touch fire, but in the sun globe there are also life, human beings, but their body is made of fire. Just like in the water. I cannot go into the water, but there are so many small fishes, they are living very nicely. So this we do not know. We are trying to gain success in these material activities, but by God's will, there are different living entities. They have already all the successes. So therefore our real business is not to waste our time to get any material success. Our real business is how we shall be successful to become an obedient servant of Krsna. That's all. That is real success. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? Prabhupada: (Hindi) Let me explain this. Just like Prahlada Maharaja was offered benediction, "Now you take benediction." So he said that "Where is benediction? I have seen my father was so powerful materially that even the demigods, they were frightened. So even if I get certain material successes, but you can finish it within a second. So why shall I take all these benedictions? Please engage me as the servant of your servant. That is my success." Dr. Patel: Perpetual engagement in the service of... Prabhupada: Yes. This is vaisnava-vicara. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? Prabhupada: Yes. [break] It means they must. [break] Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "O great one, who stands above even Brahma, You are the original master. Why should they not offer their homage up to You, O limitless one? O refuge of the universe, You are the invincible source, the cause of all causes, transcendental to this material manifestation." Prabhupada: So our duty is to accept the original Supreme, Krsna, because... Dr. Patel: He is adi-karta. Prabhupada: Adi-karta. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) [break] Prabhupada: ...puranas, not new manufactured. [break] If I have to offer my obeisances and surrender, why not to Krsna? Why an imitation Krsna? Why? Just like if you go to purchase some medicine, the shopkeeper may say, "Now, here is a medicine equal to this medicine, and its price is less." So no sane man will purchase. "Why I shall purchase the imitation for being less price? Give me the original." [break] ...the life of Ramakrishna. It is said that at the time of his death he said to his disciples, especially to Vivekananda, that "I am the same Rama, I am the same Krsna," and he took it. And he preached that "This Gadadhara Chatterjee, Ramakrishna." That's all. Then if he is referring to the original Rama and Krsna, so why not take the original Rama and Krsna? What is the proof? Simply by his words one can accept? Just like he is taking the proof, Arjuna. Yes. Giriraja: "You are the original Personality, the Godhead. You are the only sanctuary of this manifested cosmic world. You know everything, and You are all that is knowable. You are above the material modes. O limitless form, this whole cosmic manifestation is pervaded by You." Prabhupada: Now, instead of accepting the original, real thing, why people accept imitation? What is the reason? Dr. Patel: Because they get the earthly benefit much quicker by worshiping the lower gods. That is why... Prabhupada: No, no, not lower gods. Lower god, I am not speaking. Imitation god. Lower god, demigod, they are lower. That is already... I mean to say somebody says that "I am the same Krsna, same Rama." Why he is accepted like that, giving up the original Rama and Krsna? What is the reason? Dr. Patel: Guru-bhakti. Prabhupada: What is that guru-bhakti? Guru never says that "I am Rama-Krsna, I am..." That is rascaldom. If any guru says that, then he is not guru. Dr. Patel: He is rascal guru. Prabhupada: He is a rascal, not guru. Rascal cannot be guru. You cannot add this. Then they are the same, daridra-narayana. Narayana cannot be daridra; daridra cannot be Narayana. Similarly, rascal cannot be guru, and guru is not rascal. So this is a question. I am inquiring from you. Why people accept this imitation? Satsvarupa: They want to be cheated? Prabhupada: No, they don't want to be cheated, but... Of course, they are cheated. What is the psychology of accepting imitation false god? I am asking you. You, doctor sir. Dr. Patel: I have no answer. Prabhupada: Yes. So this is going on. Why you should imitate? Dr. Patel: He has got the answer. Prabhupada: Yes, answer. Yasomatinandana: Because they are less intelligent. Dr. Patel: He is more intelligent. Prabhupada: Yes, he has accepted Krsna. Therefore he is more intelligent than these rascals. Yes. He has accepted the original. He is not going to accept any false imitation. Therefore he is intelligent, more intelligent. Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: (Sanskrit) [break] Giriraja: "You are air, fire, water, and You are the moon. You are the supreme controller and the grandfather. Thus I offer my respectful obeisances unto You a thousand times, and again and yet again." [break] Prabhupada: Here is parampara. Now, if we follow the footsteps of Arjuna, and we should surrender like that... Dr. Patel: (next verse, Sanskrit) [break] Prabhupada: ...studying Bhagavad-gita. If somebody recommends that "We accept this false," then what kind of business this is? Everyone says, "Oh, we have studied Bhagavad-gita." (laughs) What you have studied? You are attached to some false imitation, and how you have studied? So am I right, Mr. Sar? Dr. Patel: You are always right. Prabhupada: No, no. You are not properly answering. (laughter) I know that. Now... Dr. Patel: You come into altercation unnecessarily. Prabhupada: No, no, there must be pariprasna. There must be pariprasna. Pariprasna is required, but in submissiveness with reasoning, not like vagabonds, no. Pariprasna must be there. Now, after reading Bhagavad-gita, if somebody says that "Here is an imitation God accepted," is that very nice thing? This should be discussed. Otherwise, if we stick to our original principle and go on reading Bhagavad-gita three times a day, then what is the use? What is the use? Dr. Patel: Shall I go ahead? (Sanskrit) [break] Prabhupada: Answer. Dr. Patel: It will be unanswerable by me. I have to submit. Otherwise you may fire me unnecessarily and create trouble, and I create trouble for you. Prabhupada: No, no, no. I will not fire. I'll not fire. We are coming to reasoning. Without pariprasna, reasoning... Either you should accept that you should not, anyone, recommend any imitation... Dr. Patel: We accept God what is written in the Bhagavad-gita, all right, in toto. Prabhupada: Therefore, if we are actually student of Bhagavad-gita, we should accept it in total instead of deviating from that. That is my request. We are teaching that. Why one should deviate? Indian man (2): Krsna is one reality. He may have many forms. He may have many names. Krsna is one reality. He is correct. But He can have many names. Eko sad-vipra bahudha vadanti. Prabhupada: Bahudha vadanti, but bahudha are mentioned. Mentioned. Just like Visnu-sahasra-nama. That is in the sastra. Therefore, if you take one of the names, then you have to refer to the sastra, not that you manufacture one word. That you cannot do. Indian man (2): The sastras were also made by men, sages. Prabhupada: No, no, then which one you will accept? Indian man (2): ...by the realized person. Prabhupada: Yes. Sastra means... Indian man (2): But you cannot say that in this age there are no realized persons. Prabhupada: No. It must corroborate. Indian man (2): Corroborated by whom? Prabhupada: Corroborated by you. By you. If somebody says that "I am correct," then you have to refer to the sastra whether he is correct or wrong. Just like a medical man. There is characteristic of certain chemicals. That is mentioned. So when accepting some chemical, the medical man tests in his laboratory whether it is correct. Not that somebody brings some chemical, some bunch of lime, and he says, "It is sodium chloride," or "Something, something." It must be tested. So the testing method is mentioned there, that the avatara means, "This avatara means his feature of body is this, his work is like this, he will come on such and such." Just like Kalki avatara. Kalki avatara, it is mentioned in the sastra... Although He will come after four lakhs of years, it is stated in the sastra that in Sambal... Sambal, in the house of Visnu-josi, Kalki-avatara will come. Dr. Patel: In central provinces. Prabhupada: Not central provinces. Not mentioned there. Sambal it is. Dr. Patel: In northern part of India. Prabhupada: No, that is also not mentioned. Simply Sambal. And Bhagavata was written five thousand years ago, and there is also mention of Lord Buddha's name. Kikatesu bhavisyati. Bhavisyati. This word is used, "in future." So this is sastra, that even the incarnation will come four lakhs of years after or 2,500 years after, still, there is mention. His feature, his work -- everything is there. Why should we accept a false imitation unless it is corroborated by the sastra? You cannot say everyone is realized soul because he recommends something. No. We have to corroborate. (aside:) Hare Krsna. This is the defect of our understanding, that we accept everyone as realized soul. How he is realized soul? If he is speaking something wrong, how he is realized soul? Against the sastra. That is not realized soul. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karatah, na siddhim avapnoti [Bg. 16.23]. Sastra reference must be there. Dr. Patel: In sastra all the signs, symptoms, and characteristics of a siddha are mentioned. And those characteristics must be there with the siddha. Prabhupada: Yeah, then we shall accept. Sadhu-sastra-guru-vakya tinete kariya aikya. Sastra will say, and guru will say, "Yes, it is rightly said." Saintly person also will accept. Just like Krsna is accepted by Arjuna. Param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan. He immediately mentioned that "Such sage, authorities, accept. The sastra says." Not that because Krsna was His friend, he accepted blindly. No. That is corroboration. Whether it is mentioned in the sastras, whether other saintly persons... Just like there are so many avataras, but we have got our acarya-sampradaya, Ramanuja, Yamunacarya. Whether they are accepting? Not a third class man accepted, and it is accepted. The acarya. Acaryavan puruso veda. This is the way of accepting. [break] Everyone will create his authorities, and unlimited imitation of God will come into existence, and people will be diverted from the reality. [break] The same example, that "Here is an imitation medicine, very cheap, as good as the original one." Even taking it for acceptance that it is as good as the other one, but why in the presence of the original, I shall accept this imitation? What is your answer? Accepting this imitation is as good as the other, but if the other original is present, I can get it, why shall I go to the imitation? [break] Indian man (2): No, no, that is my understanding. You correct me. According to me, Vedas are first. Prabhupada: Yes. Indian man (2): You also say that. Prabhupada: Yes. Indian man (2): Vedas only repeat the Vedic rites. Indian man 3: Veda means Vedanta. Vedanta-sutra comes afterwards. [break] Prabhupada: Puranas are not Vedanta? Indian man (2): Puranas, how can it be? (indistinct) Prabhupada: That is your mistake. Indian man (3): Well I, I'm not a... Prabhupada: You see, Madhva... [break] They are supplementary to the Vedas. Dr. Patel: These are the agamas and nigamas. Prabhupada: This is the Mayavadi's version. They do not accept the Puranas. This is Mayavadi version. But our parampara system, Madhvacarya, he has accepted Puranas, Ramayana, Mahabharata, as Vedic literature. So we have to follow the acarya. Acaryavan puruso... Yes. Not only Madhvacarya, all, all other acaryas. Indian man (2): Acarya, rsis, they have got all different... Dr. Patel: But those people are following Sankaracarya... Prabhupada: Yes, but Sankaracarya accepted Bhagavad-gita. Then... He commented, and he accepted Krsna. Dr. Patel: His commentation is different, you see. Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. He has accepted Krsna, sa bhagavan svayam krsnah. He has accepted. You have read, Bhagavad-gita. He has accepted. Dr. Patel: Yes, I have read it. Prabhupada: Then why the Sankarites will not accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead? [break] ...destructful question that Vedas and Puranas...? No. Sankaracarya accepted. If you are real follower of Sankaracarya, you accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Indian man (2): Sankaracarya also accepted Siva also. Siva and Krsna is non-different. Dr. Patel: No, don't say that. (Hindi) (laughter) Prabhupada: They worship Visnu. They worship Visnu. Indian man (2): They worship Visnu but their prime deity is Sankara, and not... Prabhupada: No, no. They worship five murtis. So they give equal im... Because Siva is also not ultimate. Sankaracarya's thesis is "Ultimately, the Absolute Truth is nirakara." Not even Siva. Therefore, either Siva or Visnu or Ganesa, the same thing, same thing. They are not sticking with the Siva form. They worship Visnu form, also Ganesa, as it is recommended in that book. [break] The difference is there. That difference is there. But we have to take which is correct. Indian man (2): According to their realizations, you see. Prabhupada: No, no. We have to take which is correct. Indian man (2): Who can take... You see, I... [break] Prabhupada: ...if you know which acarya is correct. Indian man (2): Oh which acarya. So if your conscience... [break] Prabhupada: Acarya means one. Acarya... Just like Vedavyasa. Vedavyasa. (Indian man talking in background) [break] Now, then you must know what is God. That is God. Indian man (2): So why talk about acaryas and why discuss these things? Prabhupada: No, no. Why discuss not? Discussion must be there to understand. First of all, if God is... Indian man (2): There should be no uncompromising attitude regarding other's views. You see we must have our attitude of brotherhood. [break] Prabhupada: What Vyasadeva says? That is described in the... Dr. Patel: What Vyasadeva says. Different acaryas' interpretation... Prabhupada: No, no. There is no interpretation. How can you interpret? Indian man (2): [break] ...follow acarya. You see... [break] Prabhupada: Acarya means not foolishly. Indian man (2): Foolishly? There should be rational outlook. Yes, I agree with you. There should be rational outlook about all these things, and then, you see... Prabhupada: Vyasadeva says, Vyasadeva says that, in his all writing, om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. Indian man (2): That is all right. Prabhupada: Yes. So krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. Indian man (2): Sivo 'ham. Sivo 'ham. Prabhupada: Sivo 'ham is another thing. Indian man (2): No, that is also there, you see. You can't forget that... [break] Prabhupada: ...when require first of all. If you... (Hindi) Interpretation when required, when you cannot understand. But if you understand, why should you interpret? Indian man (2): No, he has interpreted. Prabhupada: No, no, first of all, let us understand where interpretation is required. Dr. Patel: When there is a difficulty in understanding. Prabhupada: Yes. No. When there is difficulty in understanding. But when there is no difficulty in understanding, then why there is interpretation? [break] ...by Krsna in the Eleventh Chapter, where is the difficulty to understand? [break] There is no need of interpretation. Now, suppose Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam [Bg. 18.65]. Indian man (2): Then why these acaryas have interpretated Gita? Prabhupada: No, no, real acarya will not interpret. The one who is false acarya, he will interpret. Indian man (2): So Sankaracarya was not a false acarya. He has interpreted Gita. He has got a big bhasya of Gita. Ramanujacarya has got a big bhasya of Gita. [break] Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Dr. Patel: This is the real thing, what the Vedas say, that even though, after studying all and after you think that you are realized, though in keno... [break] Prabhupada: ...wasting your time. Dr. Patel: No, we are not wasting our time. Still I may tell you sir, that we are not wasting our time. Prabhupada: No, if you read, then why you are wasting time? Dr. Patel: This is my interpretation. [break] Prabhupada: No, no. I am not realized. No, no, no. No, no, no. I have realized... [break] ...should stop discussing Bhagavad-gita because Bhagavad-gita begins, evam parampara. Indian man (2): (shouting unintelligibly) Prabhupada: No, no. [break] ...as the acarya. And we have to accept. Dr. Patel: What I mean to say that realized people don't criticize because final proof nobody knows. [break] Prabhupada: Sarvarhanam acyutejya. Simply by worshiping Krsna, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], you can worship everyone. There is no need of separately worshiping the five devatas. There is no need. Giriraja: (reads synonyms for Bg. 11.13) "Translation: At that time Arjuna could see in the universal form of the Lord the unlimited expansions of the universe situated in one place although divided into many, many thousands." Prabhupada: Yes. So, although... Now, what is important? The many, many thousands universes divided into varieties of opulences, that is important or Krsna important? Dr. Patel: Krsna is important. Prabhupada: That's it. Dr. Patel: The whole thing was ekamsena sthito jagat. Prabhupada: That is being explained. Dr. Patel: Shall I go further? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: tatah sa vismayavisto hrsta-roma dhananjayah pranamya sirasa devam krtanjalir abhasata He got frightened. Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: Then, bewildered and astonished, his hair standing on end, Arjuna began to pray with folded hands, offering obeisances to the Supreme Lord." Dr. Patel: He was frightened, seeing that. Shall I read further, arjuna uvaca? Prabhupada: Yes. Now, why he became frightened? Dr. Patel: On seeing such a huge, I mean, unbelievable things perhaps by ordinary human being. In a one place of Krsna's. (indistinct) Right? Indian man (2): He realized his insignificance because of Lord Krsna. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: arjuna uvaca pasyami devams tava deva dehe sarvams tatha bhuta-visesa-sanghan brahmanam isam kamalasana-stham rsims ca sarvan uragams ca divyan Prabhupada: Now, he is beginning from the three deities of creation: Brahma, Visnu, Mahesvara. Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Arjuna said: My dear Lord Krsna, I see assembled together in Your body all the demigods and various other living entities. I see Brahma sitting on the lotus flower as well as Lord Siva and many sages and divine serpents." Dr. Patel: Shall I go further, sir? Prabhupada: So you are understanding all this? If you have got any question, you can ask. All right, go on. Dr. Patel: (reads next verse Bg. 11.16, in Sanskrit) Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "aneka-many..." (pause) Prabhupada: "Because one, there is no aneka," that is nonsense. In one, aneka, that is philosophy. Dr. Patel: Eko asmin bhavisyami abhutyam. (?) Prabhupada: Aneka is one. But "Because there is aneka," therefore, "because there is one, therefore no consideration of the aneka." That is not intelligent. Aneka in one. That is real philosophy. Giriraja: "Bahu-arms..." Prabhupada: Aneka, that is in one. Therefore this aneka is not different from the one. But this aneka does not mean that one. Read. Giriraja: (continues synonyms) "Translation: O Lord of the universe..." Prabhupada: Still, although he saw aneka in Krsna, still, he is seeing Krsna there. That is real vision. Giriraja: "O Lord of the universe, I see in Your universal body many, many forms-bellies, mouths, eyes-expanded without limit. There is no end, there is no beginning, and there is no middle to all this." Prabhupada: A crude example can be given. Just like a man may be director of this company and trust of that company and so many when he is working. But his wife is feeling that he is her husband. That's all. She does not see anything, although he is working in aneka-rupam. This is the, a crude example. He has his eyes to see, "Here is my beloved husband." That's all. Just like Yasodamayi. Yasodamayi saw that all the universes within the mouth... She asked, ordered Krsna, "I want to see whether you have eaten dirt. Open your mouth." So Krsna opened the mouth and not only dirt, but all the universes... So she saw, but she did not believe that Krsna can have all these universes. So she said, "All right, that's all right. Don't do it again." She did not take care of the universes. Although Krsna is showed him all the universes within the mouth, she was concerned with Krsna. That's all. Dr. Patel: (next verse, Bg. 11.17 Sanskrit) Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "dipta-anala-..." Prabhupada: The glowings are there; we cannot see even the sun. All the glowings are there. It is difficult. Yes. Go on. Giriraja: (finishes synonyms) "Translation: Your form, adorned with various crowns, clubs and discs, is difficult to see because of it glaring effulgence, which is fiery and immeasurable like the sun." Dr. Patel: Do you want to comment or shall I...? Prabhupada: No, it is all right. Dr. Patel: (next verse in Sanskrit, 11.18) Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: You are the supreme primal objective; You are the best in all the universes; You are inexhaustible, and You are the oldest; You are the maintainer of religion, the eternal Personality of Godhead." Prabhupada: This is to be understood. The same thing, the supremacy of Krsna, is being repeatedly stressed in so many ways, and still, by reading Bhagavad-gita, they do not accept the supremacy of Krsna. Dr. Patel: Shall I go further, sir? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: (reads next verse in Sanskrit, 11.19) Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "netram-eyes..." Prabhupada: Now, one question may be raised, that after reading all the details of Bhagavad-gita, if somebody said, "There was no Krsna," what kind of inter... Dr. Patel: He is a fool. Prabhupada: (laughs) So see. And these fools and rascals are going on as big men. You see? What kind of Bhagavad-gita he has read, that he says that "There was no Krsna, there was no Battlefield of Kuruksetra"? And that is our challenge, "Why do you say like that?" Mr. Sar: Why do they say like that? Indian man (2): They are ignorant people. Dr. Patel: They are suska Vedantists. Prabhupada: No. They are rascals, simply rascals, not suska Vedantists. Vedantist is... His father is also not Vedantist. They do not know what is Vedanta. Simply rascals. That is our propaganda, that why you accept these rascals as leader? Indian man (2): Krsna is described in the Upanisads. Then how can they say there is no Krsna? Prabhupada: Yes. Still, they say, "There was no Krsna." That is the most regrettable incidence, that these people, they do not know what is Bhagavad-gita, and still, they pose themselves as a knower of Bhagavad-gita. Yes. That should be protested now. That is our mission. No, you cannot say like that. Dr. Patel: We are going to read up to the mandir. Because we have not... Prabhupada: [break] ...study one line, that is sufficient. It does not mean to go like a storm and do not understand. Dr. Patel: We don't go like a storm. We go very slowly. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Let us go slow but sure. Giriraja: (finishes synonyms for 11.19) "Translation: You are the origin without beginning, middle or end. You have numberless arms, and the sun and moon are among Your great unlimited eyes. By Your own radiance, You are heating this entire universe." Prabhupada: Krsna says that prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. Now that being exhibited by Krsna. Not only Krsna said, but He exhibited. Dr. Patel: And now for the real thing. Shall I read, sir? Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Patel: (reads verse 11.20 in Sanskrit) Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: Although You are one, You are spread throughout the sky and the planets and all space between. O great one, as I behold this terrible form, I see that all the planetary systems are perplexed." Prabhupada: For devotee, that is a terrible form. That is not very pleasing. Therefore they do not worship the virat form. They worship Krsna's original, dvi-bhuja. Dvi-bhuja murlidhara syamasundara. That is the original form. Dr. Patel: That is what we say. Prabhupada: Yes, Dvi-bhuja murlidhara syamasundara. Venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam barhavatamsam asitambudha-sundarangam [Bs. 5.30]. Arca-vigraha. Venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam barhavatam... Barha, this peacock feather. They are described in the Vedic literature, but these rascals say, "That it is imagination. They have imagined." The Mayavadis say, "They have imagined a form of God as Krsna, with peacock feather, with murli." But that's not the fact. The fact is there in the Vedic literature. So Krsna has got this universal form, but the devotees are not interested with this universal form. But they know that Krsna has universal form. Go on. Dr. Patel: (reads next verse 11.21 in Sanskrit) Giriraja: (reads synonyms) "Translation: All the demigods are surrendering and entering into You. They are very much afraid, and with folded hands they are singing the Vedic hymns." Prabhupada: When the demigods... They have to offer prayers to the Lord, instead of... How they can be worshiped on the equal level of God? How can they be worshiped on the...? That is forbidden. Hare Krsna. Yas tu narayanam deva. Jaya. Hare Krsna. (some people come) Yas tu narayanam devam brahma-rudradi-daivataih, samatvena vikseta sa pasandi bhaved dhruvam [Cc. Madhya 18.116]. Narayanam devam, the Supreme Personality of God Narayana, if one makes Him on the equal position with such big, big demigods like Brahma, Rudra, so immediately he becomes a pasandi. And now they are comparing with the daridra. Just see. Dr. Patel: Now again you are going that way. Shall I read on? Prabhupada: No, no, this is a fact, you must understand. You do not know. You must know it. You must know it. Narayana cannot be compared with Brahma, Rudra, and these rascals have compared Him with daridra. Just see, how much rascal they are. Indian man (3): Illustration. Prabhupada: Yes. Here all the... Why you are anxious to read? You be anxious to understand first of all. Dr. Patel: I have understood. Prabhupada: You do not understand. That is... You fight with me. Therefore I am reading this. Yes. We are speaking on Bhagavad-gita, not your imaginary words. That is our point. How these rascals compare with, ordinary, poor man with Narayana? Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Prabhupada: That's right. Yes. Dr. Patel: I say so, but immediately I understood, but we want to understand more and more. You say it is not possible to understand... Prabhupada: No, if you immediately understand, then immediately you forget also. Dr. Patel: No, I don't forget. Prabhupada: No, no, immediately understanding means immediately forget. (laughter) Dr. Patel: It is not possible to forget. I understand immediately and never forget. For all it may not be. Shall I read further, sir? Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Dr. Patel: (reads next verse, 22 in Sanskrit) Prabhupada: Now he is describing who are offering prayers. All the big, big demigods, surasangha, they are respectfully offering. And they cannot be equal. The Mayavadi says, "All the demigods, you chant, chant Hare Krsna or Kali Krsna or Durga Krsna, this is all the same." Dr. Patel: Or daridra-narayana. Prabhupada: Or daridra-narayana, that is the same. Giriraja: (reads synonyms to:) "visve -- the Visvadevas..." [break] Prabhupada: ...clearly described, what is God, what is the distinction between God and other demigods, living entity. Everything is clearly explained. So you can talk all nonsense without Bhagavad-gita. That is another chapter. But if you claim that "We read Bhagavad-gita," you cannot say like that. That is our propaganda. If you actually have read Bhagavad-gita, then you cannot say all this nonsense. [break] Dr. Patel: ...common features of Krsna are common to all paramparas. It can't be different from one another. Prabhupada: No, no. Parampara. He says, "As soon as this parampara was lost, the Bhagavad-gita was lost." Nastah, it is said, nastah. "Therefore I am taking you again as parampara." You see? If you do not accept... Dr. Patel: What you say... I mean... Listen. This is one of the way of seeing things. Prabhupada: No, no, no, you see... open, open (indistinct) Dr. Patel: Krsna is so multifarious and so multiple energies He has got that only ekasmin... Prabhupada: No, no, here it is said, in the Fourth... This is Fourth Chapter? Dr. Patel: No, this is Twelfth Chapter. I am reading the common features of all the sadhus. Advesta sarva-bhutanam maitrah karuna eva ca, nirmamo nirahankarah, nirahankarah [Bg. 12.13]. We must have (Sanskrit) Prabhupada: No, that is ahankara, that "I have got my own interpretation." That is ahankara. Dr. Patel: But you say your own interpretation also. That is also ahankara, sir. Prabhupada: No, no. I am taking the interpretation of Krsna. Dr. Patel: He must be also taking in that way. Prabhupada: No, no. Dr. Patel: With all my due respect, sir, well, we must have some sort of forbearance for others' views. Prabhupada: No, no. Because if we have got to preach, we cannot make any compromise. Dr. Patel: You feel that way, we have no objection. But we should also respect somebody else's views. Prabhupada: No, we have got all respect, but not unnecessary respect. Dr. Patel: But even unnecessary respect sometimes you unnecessarily go beyond, according to the... Prabhupada: No, no, we have respect. But a thief should be called a thief. That is truth. Dr. Patel: You are the magistrate and you are the judge and you are the... Prabhupada: No, no, I am not judge. I am talking on the basis of Bhagavad-gita. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah: [Bg. 7.15] "One who is a naradhamah, he does not surrender to Krsna." So this is judgement. Ah! As soon as we see that one is not surrendered to Krsna, we accept, naradhamah. That's all. Whatever he may be. Dr. Patel: Krsna is not only one name. There are... All the names of God are... Prabhupada: No, no, that is Mayavada. Dr. Patel: That is wrong. Then we disbelieve that. Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna has got name... Dr. Patel: All the names of God are Krsna's names. That is what we are taught from our birth. Prabhupada: Then why you chant Hare Krsna? You can chant any name. Dr. Patel: No, but we want to chant Krsna's name. That's all. That is the purest. Prabhupada: Ah, that is contradictory. You said... Sometimes you say that Krsna has got many names... Dr. Patel: If I say, "Christ, Christ, Christ," it is, also goes to Krsna. Indian man (4): But do you think all the medicines are equal? Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, there are some potent medicines, all are equal. And there is Krsna and there is Christ and there is Bhagavan and there is Visnu and there is Rama. The same medicine with multiple names. Okay? Indian man (4): Well, then it is the same disease. Dr. Patel: All the disease, one medicine. Prabhupada: Then why don't you prescribe a particular... Dr. Patel: Because this is supernatural. This is not ordinary medicine. This is not the medicine of earthly things. This is the medicine of super things. That is why one name, all. What do you want to say in this interpretation? Because we are not dealing with earth here. We are dealing with spiritual things. And... [break] Prabhupada: ...sane body cannot prescribe one medicine for everyone. Dr. Patel: But that is in this earth. In this maya. But beyond maya, you can prescribe one medicine for all. That is Krsna's medicine. [break] Prabhupada: ...says, duskrtino mudhah naradhamah, these words. [break] Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. Dr. Patel: Right, but we are prapadyante. Prabhupada: We are talking only... We are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is. That's all. That is our business. It may be palatable or not palatable. It doesn't matter. We have to place as it is. That criterion is there, that... [break] Dr. Patel: ...whether he had come from the lowest of the low. [break] Prabhupada: ...realization is this, that anyone who has not surrendered to Krsna, he must be one of these: duskrtino mudhah naradhamah mayayapahrta-jnana. Dr. Patel: How can you say people are...? Prabhupada: Vedas, Krsna says. We are fool, rascal. We simply repeat Krsna's words. That's all. [break] ...Bhagavad-gita, then you have to accept like that. Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gita is not the secondary I mean other, literatures. [break] Why not? Have I no right to read? Prabhupada: You can have right to misinterpret. That's all right. But we are not going to do that. No. Dr. Patel: It all depends upon my own intelligence. Prabhupada: That's all right. [break] Dr. Patel: ...dadami yogo 'ham. He gives me that yoga and I read that way. How can you say that? I have got no power excepting the power given by God. Prabhupada: When you take intelligence from Krsna... Dr. Patel: That is what He gives me and I take it. Prabhupada: And He says that "If you don't surrender Me, then you are mudha, naradhama." He says that. He says that. Dr. Patel: No, that is not... I mean, you are too harsh. Prabhupada: Why harsh? I am quoting Bhagavad-gita. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante... [Bg. 7.15]. Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gita, no... Final sastras are the Vedas. Prabhupada: Then don't accept Bhagavad-gita. Dr. Patel: We are accepting because it is the sarva ga... Prabhupada: Then don't accept the words. You accept Bhagavad-gita... Dr. Patel: How can you say, "Don't accept..." Prabhupada: No, no, here it is clearly said that "Anyone who is not surrendered to Me, he is a miscreant, rascal, mudha, everything." That is the test. Dr. Patel: What do you mean by surrendering? Surrendering to His will. "Are you surrendered to My will and fight? And, my boy, I have already killed them." That is what we read in the Eleventh Chapter. In that surrender to His will, God's will. That is surrender. (Hindi) [break] Prabhupada: That is your interpret... Krsna says man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Dr. Patel: Mam means... Prabhupada: Oh mam means? Again mam means? Dr. Patel: ...mam means will, Krsna, who is representing the (indistinct) atma. He is outer Krsna. Real Krsna is the guru, not even the murti, the arca-puja. Prabhupada: That is your interpretation. Dr. Patel: That is my interpretation. That is all intelligence of the world. And if you say no, well, I am prepared to own it. It's not right, sir, to be harsh on intelligence, sir. Prabhupada: What is intelligence? Mudha? Dr. Patel: Intelligence is given by God and... Prabhupada: If one is a mudha, where is intelligence? Why shall I give him the credit of intelligence? He is a mudha. One who does not surrender to Krsna, he is a mudha. Number one. There is no intelligence. One who has not surrendered to Krsna, he has no intelligence. (end)   >>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk -- April 5, 1974, Bombay HOME

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