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Does My Spiritual Master Care For Me?

Does My Spiritual Master Care For Me?


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Does My Spiritual Master Care For Me?

By Kesava Krsna Dasa

Within such a huge organisation like Iskcon, it is not surprising to sometimes experience less of the affection we expected. There are several reasons for this. But if a disciple feels this way about his or her guru in good standing, does it indicate a neglect of some sort?

The worldwide preaching mission of Iskcon is still a novelty in historical vaisnava terms. This is the first successful attempt, and still very much work in progress. Often we hear that other religious organisations have old-age homes, hospices, hospitals, schools and the rest, and they have been around for many centuries. We have a few of these amenities already, after just 40 odd years, so we’re not doing too badly so far. For a preaching mission that supposedly has little regard for “Home comforts,” it is doing even better.

We again often hear the comparison that our worldwide expanse fares poorly with the traditional localised system of guru/disciple relationships. Is this true? The majority of traditional gurus were grhasthas, who for family reasons stayed local. The renounced sannyasa gurus usually wandered like mendicants and so their disciples would expect long periods of separation.

It so happens that the majority of our initiating gurus are sannyasis who travel the world preaching. Even the relatively few grhastha gurus also travel and are not always localised. This difference in comparison is not a poor one. Why did Srila Prabhupada set this standard himself? There were times when communities of his disciples waited for long periods before his return from preaching duties elsewhere in the world.

The traditional sannyasis travelled on foot, and our modern-day sannyasis travel by plane, but the principle remains the same. What isn’t the same though are the sheer numbers of disciples located in different parts of the world, many of whom also wait for long phases of time before meeting their gurus again. Is this something to worry about?

In his mind’s eye, Srila Prabhupada visualised many temples around the world. This inner vision materialised in harmony with Sri Chaitanaya Mahaprabhu’s vision. This meant that the preaching he did to achieve this, served a higher purpose than we normally think. There is something about preaching that enables one to feel a sense of unison with the higher order of things.

“The dust of the lotus feet of pure devotees, enthusiastic devotional service, and service to the pure devotees of the highest order, are the roots of the creeper of devotion.” (Suddha-Bhakata)

Whether we consider any potential new devotee to be as if introducing a new gopi to Sri Krishna, or whether we preach simply to please the spiritual master, both have a unifying effect that’s binds our mutual interest in serving the mission of Srila Prabhupada. That mutual interest is shared by all of our previous acaryas who are oceans of mercy. This quality of mercy is not always fully appreciated. The same applies for spiritual affection.

If a disciple expects to be treated with affection by the guru in the same way as love-lost materialists do, he or she will be disappointed for much of the time. In situations where the divorce rate is unacceptably high, and the adventure for extra-marital affairs ever booming, lovers and married couples have to continually test their bonds of affection with, “Do you love me? Do you really, really love me, and no one else?”

This love-lost test cannot apply to a relationship where the guru is already merciful. The merciful and affectionate spiritual master may be heavy and stern with some disciples, and gentle and forbearing with others. From an internal viewpoint there is no different in the affection displayed by the guru. If we choose to judge externally, thinking that the guru favours some disciples and not others, then our whole conception requires renovation.

If someone raises the question, “Can the spiritual master withdraw his mercy?” then again it is not applicable to a bona-fide guru full of mercy. The prerogative to give or not to give Krishna’s mercy is there, but for an initiated devotee the rope of mercy has already been handed out. Rather, any apparent withdrawal of mercy is subject to the disciple’s resolve. If a disciple fails to grasp the rope it is not the fault of the guru.

“Krishna is yours; you have the power to give Him to me. I am simply running behind you shouting, Krishna! Krishna!” (Ohe Vaisnava Thakur)

When and if a disciple develops worldly mindedness due to falling short of required standards, it can create relative vision. With this vision one can conclude that perhaps the guru has withdrawn his mercy and affection, and does not really care. This can extend towards fellow devotees too. With this type of consciousness many small incidents will be a cause of disappointment. Relative vision equals relative misery.

“O my dear Lord Nityananda! Since You are always very joyful in spiritual bliss, please cast Your merciful glance over me, because I am very unhappy.” (Savarna-Sri-Gaura-Pada-Padma)

For instance, suppose there is a group of 100 disciples and well-wishers converged in one place. The spiritual master appears on the scene. He knows that everyone present would be happy to speak with him, or to receive a greeting and a few words from him. With time constraints or other commitments it is not possible to meet everyone, yet he may speak to some individuals. If this causes great disappointment for those who did not get spoken to or to be acknowledged, the guru can hardly be blamed for appearing to “snub” or “ignore” certain others in the crowd.

“Your heart is the resting place of Lord Govinda, and Lord Govinda says, “The vaisnavas are in My heart.” (Vaisnava Vijnapati)

These feelings of disappointment will persist so long as one values the external feature of the guru more than the internal one. Just like on Janmastami at midnight, some pujaris may hand out several prasada items to many eager outstretched hands. Are those who squeezed to the front to receive such prasada more fortunate than the others further back? Yet, standing right at the back could be one sincere soul quietly shedding tears in admiration for the Lord’s mercy in handing out the prasada through the pujaris.

“Slay me or protect me as You wish, for You are the eternal master of Your eternal servant.” (Manasa-deha-geha)

In this case, the Lord’s mercy was distributed differently, but the grateful and appreciative soul had a broad internal vision. With maturity of vision a disciple will realize that the guru cannot be everywhere at once, but he has already accessed the heart of the disciple by planting the holy name – Sri Nama Prabhu.

Another important matter to consider is that providence makes these events happen. To conclude that one’s guru is indifferent is to say that Sri Krishna Himself is not merciful or affectionate, which is a philosophical non-starter.

“O Gopinatha, is this Your judgement, that seeing Me averse to You, You abandon Your servant and don’t bestow even a particle of mercy upon him?” (Gopinatha, part 2, verse 6)

Yet another problem can slow our Iskcon projects down. We are all dependent on the mercy of the spiritual master. But sometimes we may allow this dependence to make us fairly inactive service-wise, until the guru is around. This is why it is essential that as many of our senior devotees as possible be available, to reflect or mirror the affection of the guru. This is Siksha in action.

This Siksha action of our senior devotees will lend balance to our community structures. They can be the driving force in implementing plans of action. They can also become the emotional support of disciples, or in many cases, junior God brothers and God sisters. They can bridge the sometimes distant openings between the disciples, the gurus and GBC’s.

It is not unnatural for any disciple to want to be with the guru. “When will such mercy fall to this one who is weak and devoid of intelligence? Allow me to be with you.” (Gurudeva)

But when the number of disciples is large, and missionary duties limit desired guru/disciple interactions, the middle ground of the senior devotees can help make up the difference. Otherwise, some forlorn disciple might end up wondering whether he or she must either do something extraordinary, or the opposite of this, to attract the attention of the guru.

“If you are not merciful unto me, I can only weep.” (Gurudeva, from Saranagati)

These sort of things happened when Srila Prabhupada was around too. One incident occurred when Brahmananda Dasa and Bali-Mardana Dasa, who were both influential devotees, decided to greet Srila Prabhupada at one airport, after requesting all the other devotees to remain back at the temple to receive him. These two God brothers greeted their master and received a warm embrace. Were they more fortunate than the other devotees back at the temple?

In light of all the many nuances of the guru/disciple relationship within a progressive preaching mission as Iskcon, the higher purpose that Srila Prabhupada taught us is to rely on the internal, or the instruction side of the guru. Like the sincere devotee at the back of the temple quietly shedding tears in admiration of Krishna’s mercy, this fits in neatly with our goal to act in such a way so that Krishna will be pleased to reveal Himself to us. If we replicate this mood towards the guru, eventually the real purposes and treasured goals in life shall be revealed. “We must always keep within our hearts the instructions of Sadhu, Sastra and Guru. This is the process.” (Prema-Bhakti-Candrika)

Your servant, Kesava Krsna Dasa – GRS.

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1 Unregistered

All this mention of “guru”, but you didn’t specify/define “guru”. Which guru? There are many types/forms of guru. However, I would assume most readers will automatically assume you’re referencing the diksha guru. Why is there so much importance placed on the diksha guru? I see this as a BIG problem in our modern day spiritual movement.

Over-emphasizing the role & importance of the diksha guru (the one that officiates the Harinam initiation formalities & name giving) at the expense of valuing the equal importance of the other necessary guru forms. Guru is one. Krsna is the original guru & the source of all knowledge. He disseminates knowledge through His unlimited potencies.

I’m willing to walk on a razor’s edge and say that this extreme diksha fan club mentality, that seems to be rather widespread, breeds sectarianism and a lack of understanding Sri Guru.

(Disclaimer: I am NOT a ritvik)

Comment posted by bbd on September 8th, 2010
2 pustakrishna

In addition, there is Chaitya-guru, Sri Krishna, within our heart. He is our dearmost Friend, and will give us the proper intuition of things according to our dependence upon Him. In the loneliest of situations, Krishna never leaves us…so we must try never to leave Him. Also, Krishna is present in through His representatives, both the Acharya(s) and the associate vaishnavas, and through shastra, like Bhagavadgita and Srimad Bhagavatam. We must realize that we cannot become our own guru. That warning is there from Srila Prabhupad. That will be unsuccessful. So by realizing our dependence upon Gurudeva, we will begin to see His affection everywhere, literally. It depends upon our “attenae” or receptiveness. Pusta Krishna das

Comment posted by pustakrishna on September 8th, 2010
3 Unregistered

Thank you Kesava Krishna Prabhu for your enlightened and erudite presentation…

Besides, isn’t love enhanced by separation…?
and isn’t union in separation achieved, while pleasing the spiritual master by following his instructions, both general and personal…?

Deep subject matter !

However, there is another point which you have left aside, in relation to the level of advancement of the spiritual master… whether he is a kanistha, a madhyama or an uttama adhikari.

As it is, one may reciprocate with the affection and the hankerings of one’s disciples, according to how much of a mahatma one is… and as you pointed out, sa mahatma sudurlabha, rare is one who knows Krishna in truth, who sees Krishna, who is a genuine tattva darshi…

Srila Prabhupada, as a bonafide spiritual master uttama adhikari, is saksad Hari…

Sri Guru is the external manifestation of the Supersoul… and knows whatever everyone of his disciples does, says or even thinks at any time !

So, whether he may be externally physically present or not, doesn’t make so much difference, in the sense that for his sat shishya he is always present, in the same way that he himself always felt the presence of his own spirtual master by his side…

On the other hand, in the realm of conditioned souls, sincerity is the clue !

If guru and disciple being still on a relative platform, stick to the instructions of the sat Guru and keep associating with sastras and saddhus, while performing seva, they will become eligible to relish on the spiritual platform, in due course of time, the constant association of the Sat Guru and by his mercy, will be able to see Krishna and become tattva darshi themselves…

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah
[Bg. 4.34]

brahmanda brahmite kona bhagyavan jiva
guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija
[C.c. Madhya 19.151]

Hare Krishna
Your servant

Puskaraksa das

Comment posted by Puskaraksa das on September 8th, 2010
4 Unregistered

thank you for writing this article, prabhu, which is an expansion of the topic of your last one, which was about receiving mercy from seniors. You are certainly right that the actual mercy of the guru is his siksa- and you also mentioned that the guru may not have time to talk with everyone when he visits. Then the only siksa the disciple may get is in the form of a public lecture, which is usually tailored for newcomers, or a lecture at the temple, which may or may not allow him time to do his business as a disciple- enquire. It is also expected that the disciple will enquire on matters related to the lecture- whereas his doubts may be elsewhere. He may also feel inhibited due to shyness, to raise his hand in public, particularly to expose a doubt he has! So in 3 aspects, enquiring publicly has its drawbacks- lack of opportunity, related subject matter, and shyness. Therefore, the guru must be available for private and personal enquiries from each and every disciple, in order to ensure that the disciple is gaining ground in understanding all nuances of bhakti, and the practical implications of such- eradicating his personal anarthas- which are unique transmutations of the material modes that need specific instruction on.

It is curious that you interpret the liberating siksa as an onus on the disciple, rather than the guru- as in the carrying out of the instruction. That is only half of the siksa process- the process mentioned in the gita is not just sevaya- serving the instruction, but enquiry. If there is no opportunity to enquire, because the guru has initiated a thousand other disciples, or because he is more focussed on making disciples, rather than keeping them, or on travelling the world, rather than freeing a mind, then it will be a failure. One may object that this is exactly what S. Prabhupada did, but he did not. His personal instruction was there in the form of his books, and additional siksa could be had by mail or in person, if needed. We cannot imitate him, in initiating the numbers he did, without following in his footsteps, spending 6 hours a day, after sleeping 4 at most, writing vital instructions for his disciples and followers, now, and for generations to come.

Generally the warning is against accepting too many disciples. Thus, not following such orders can create difficulties, not least the disciples suffering from lack of guidance.

Comment posted by niscala on September 10th, 2010
5 Visakha Priya dasi

In a letter to Sri Galim (see Vedabase) Srila Prabhupada writes:

“To answer your last point, one who teaches can be treated as Spiritual Master. It is not that after we become initiated we become perfect. No. It requires teaching. So if we take instruction from them, all senior godbrothers may be treated as guru, there is no harm. Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master, who initiates you, just as you have only one father. But every Vaisnava should be treated as prabhu, master, higher than me, and in this sense, if I learn from him, he may be regarded as guru. It is not that I disobey my real Spiritual Master and call someone else as Spiritual Master. That is wrong. It is only that I can call Spiritual Master someone who is teaching me purely what my initiating Spiritual Master has taught. Do you get the sense?” (italics mine)

If I don’t like the way my spiritual master treats me or if I think he doesn’t understand me or if this and this and that, then I can go to another devotee who will pander to my desires. This attitude is the other extreme of the diksa-fan club and perhaps as widespread.

Disclaimer: I am NOT a member of the diksa-fan club.

Comment posted by Visakha Priya dasi on September 10th, 2010
6 Akruranatha

One thing that we have going for us compared to guru-disciple relationships in olden times is, modern communications systems such as email and Skype which makes it easy to stay in touch over long distances. (I supposed experts like Sanjaya and Vyasa had no need of such contrivances, but for the beginners who are not perfect in yogic telepathy, there is now internet telephony).

Regarding Disha-Siksha, I recently read Sivarama Swami’s book “The Siksa-guru, Implementing Tradition Within ISKCON”, published in 1999 by Bhaktivedanta Intezet. I found it interesting, and it challenged some of my assumptions on the subject. In fact, Sivarama Swami disclosed that in doing the research before writing the book some of his own, similar assumptions were dispelled. Sivarama Swami writes:

“At the beginning, we had a different conception of siksa-guru. Our idea was that the diksa-gurus and siksa-gurus were autonomous representatives of Lord Krishna, who, in the course of a devotee’s spiritual life, exercised their influence according to their unfettered will. Perhaps it was his spiritual need or the arrangement of Lord Krishna that would direct the flow of a devotee’s spiritual fortunes, sometimes to the initiator, sometimes to the instructors. If one found a very exalted instructor, then by all means one should soak up the nectar, at all cost, for who has the right to regulate the flow of transcendental knowledge and the right to be Krishna conscious?

“In retrospect, this scenario sounds horrendously selfish and anarchistic. But there it is; that is what we understood. … But once we set out to study Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, read other relevant texts, and discussed with senior devotees, the picture changed. At first we rejected the apparent conclusion. In time, for lack of other authorized alternatives, we struggled with it and, once convinced it was Srila Prabhupada’s will, we embraced it….”

“…A devotee may receive ongoing instructions from sadhus or be directed to an advanced Vaisnava for siksa. Still, he considers his diksa-guru as his main connection to the Lord. All others act like assistants to the initiator, although from the absolute point of view they are equal and non-different…

“The spiritual masters must be aware of their grave responsibility and work cooperatively, free from personal ambition … They should encourage their disciples to respect those who give siksa, whoever and wherever they may be.”

Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 11th, 2010
7 pustakrishna

The formality that Akruranath Prabhu has brought out must be re-examined. Really, Siksha or instruction is the life of association. Diksha is a formality, but an important one, since one should learn the offenses against chanting of the Holy Names purely. The Diksha is thus a beginning of the formal commitment to place Krishna consciousness as central in one’s life. But, Siksha, association and inspiration, is vitally important.
We may consider that Krishna brings us what we need and maintains what we have…according to His instruction in the Bhagavad Gita…and that this instruction relates to the spiritual needs of the bhakta. Bhakta literally means ‘one who is maintained’. The bhakta must feel oneself dependent upon Krishna. Krishna is fully independent, and does not have to conform to any preconceived idea we may have. Krishna is our Maintainer, not our order supplier.

There seems to be much concern with the question of affectionate dealings between devotees, and especially between the disciple and his or her gurudeva. Please know that there is an ocean of affection awaiting each and every one of us. Krishna is espertly taking us there through His help and through the assistance of His external representatives. But, we must never consider that the ‘affection’ we are counting on is something like the affection of the mundane world, lust. Lust is based on exploitation for sense/mind enjoyment. Love is revealed spiritually according to the Will of Krishna. Brahma bhuta prasannatma….mad bhaktim labhate param. Bhakti is obtained as the fruit of spiritual determination and quest. One already feels self-satisfied in decision and determination to make the spiritual life the goal of one’s existence. But love will flood the bhakta gradually or immediately as willed by the Supreme Lord.

One word of caution, I believe, is necessary: People are trying to compare current disciples of Srila Prabhupad who have taken on the responsibility of giving diksha with great acharyas like Srila Prabhupad. It is not necessary that one have the charisma, the wealth of knowledge, or the wealth of spiritual experience, to become an initiating teacher. Certainly, you do not want your teachers to fall away from the determination of Krishna consciousness….but if one can teach according to realization, in a manner consistent with the Guru Parampara, then they may be qualified to initiate bhaktas into the chanting of the Holy Names. Pusta Krishna das

Comment posted by pustakrishna on September 11th, 2010
8 Unregistered

thats interesting, Akruranath and Visakha Priya, that the siksa guru must only be secondary to the diksa guru- that the disciple must consider the diksa guru as his main connection to the Lord. It seems that throughout the guru parampara, the opposite happened many times- many links being siksa not diksa links. How can that be right?

Considering that Bhaktivonode Thakura considered his siksa guru, Jaganatha Dasa Babaji’s instructions most importantly, and rejected at least some, if not many, of the instructions of his diksa guru, particularly when the latter started claiming he was superior to Raghuinatha Dasa Goswami- due to his birth-I think that Srila P rabhupada’s instructions need to be taken in context- that he was preaching to his disciples according to time, place and circumstance. He knew that he was not deviating in any way from the conclusions of sastra and parampara, and he wanted that the other gurus in his disciples lives, siksa gurus, exactly follow his preaching, not be at variance with it: “my only qualification is that I do not change the message”

If a diksa guru is in any way deviating from Srila Prabhupada’s instructions and orders, and one finds a siksa guru who isn’t, then does it not make sense to follow the example of Bhaktivinode Thakura and consider the siksa guru’s instructions the vital ones? The main thing is that the guru is bonafide- whether he is siksa or diksa guru is secondary. Bonafide means that he is exactly following the orders and precepts of the predecessor acaryas, all the way back to Krsna.

I think that the essential point in understanding Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, is that when he speaks of siksa and diksa gurus, he is speaking of bonafide ones, who do not deviate in any way, personally or philosophically. Assuming both are bonafide, the siksa guru should certainly give directions in accordance with the diksa guru. In the present context, the pre-eminent siksa guru (Srila Prabhupada) is the one to allign oneself with, and diksa gurus are bonafide inasmuch as they do not deviate an inch from the instructions of the Srila Prabhupada.

Times have changed, and far more stress was placed by Srila Prabhupada on the guru being bonafide, on the guru “not deviating an inch” on “the message being passed down unchanged” than on diksa gurus versus siksa gurus. The clue is in his last words in the quote “all on the absolute platform”…

Comment posted by niscala on September 12th, 2010
9 KKDasa

Dear BBD?

I hope you will appreciate that all broadminded members of Iskcon are fans of the Guru Principle, or the Principle Of Guru with all of its varieties, and yes, including the emphasis on Siksha as our predecessor acaryas taught.

It is true there may be some elements of sentimental guru worship, but as Puskaraksa Prabhu mentioned in his comment (3), that with the right guidance and willingness to progress in Krishna consciousness, the internal mood will blossom eventually.

One does not have to be a deviant to highlight these things, but then, there should be an effort made to highlight certain issues amongst ourselves in the spirit of cooperation, as Srila Prabhupada desired. Unfortunately, there are those who cannot withstand this cooperation and will try to suggest, or exaggerate matters from the comfort of non-involvement, or motivated righteousness.

And guess what? It seems to be easier to opt out of the rigours of cooperation, and easier still, to pass judgement. It should again be appreciated how the members of Iskcon are serving in cooperation, and sometimes in difficult circumstances. That is where the mercy of our Siksha Guru, Srila Prabhupada, flows abundantly for those who try, even try, with their body, mind and souls to do the needful. Yet this conception cannot be grasped by all.

Pusta Krishna Prabhu,

It seemed your comment was a part two, or a continuation of something previously written. It would be presumptuous to ascertain your whole message otherwise.

Vishaka-priya Mataji,

It is nice to see you getting more involved here. We met a few weeks ago in Johannesburg and you indicated about this. And your contributions are valuable too.

You correctly wrote of the other extreme of Guru worship. We in Iskcon are striving for the correct balance in terms of “institutional” challenges and other trial and error developments. You and I have witnessed and experienced the downside of unqualified gurus. This experience certainly does not produce membership of guru “fan” clubs. We are “fans” of the guru principle, and the oneness of guru in all of its varieties, if we want to put it that way.

Ys, Kesava Krsna Dasa.

Comment posted by KKDasa on September 12th, 2010
10 KKDasa

Puskaraksa Prabhu,

Yes, you made some valid points, as you did with my previous article. The problem is, that when trying to focus on a particular aspect of, as in this case, Guru worship, it would lengthen the article greatly to add other considerations. To evaluate the level of advancement of the guru or prospective guru is an extremely important part of Guru Tattva. It would require at least a lengthy paper to cover this.

You may not be aware, but I wrote a previous article for Dandavats called, “When Guru Worship Gets Sentimental.” I briefly mentioned the downside of over-estimating the advancement of certain gurus. But this topic needs to be understood in perspective with our present early days of Iskcon and so on. It is worth writing about, but has to be done carefully due to the sensitivity of it.

One can imagine that for God brothers and God sisters, who were raised in Krishna consciousness along with someone who eventually becomes guru, will probably have a different perspective on that guru than his disciples would have. Yet, in the context of the problems we experienced with certain gurus not living up to very high standards previously, there has to be some awareness, or even preparedness in case something undesirable happens.

Niscala Mataji,

In regards to the curiosity raised about the emphasis on diciples working on the guru/disciple relationship, we have to ask; does the guru need disciples, or do the disciples need a guru?

When the necessity is there for one to search out for a bona-fide guru, then the need is greater for the disciple. Of course, as you say, the guru must teach the disciples. And if there isn’t much time for this? This can be a problem. This is why we need the siksa principle brought to life with our senior devotees being there. Again, prospective disciples are warned, or should be warned, about the likelihood of personal contact, or lack of it, especially with gurus who have many disciples.

Akruranatha Prabhu,

Amazing how technology can enable instant contact, as if going back to the walking pace of the sannyasis of olden times. But not all gurus are up to scratch with skype and so on.

With so many senior devotees around within Iskcon, they should be taking the siksa role. This can help lessen the external dependence on the guru, as well as tone down possibilities of sentimental guru worship as happens sometimes. This can bring siksa to life, as it were.

Ys, Kesava Krsna Dasa.

Comment posted by KKDasa on September 12th, 2010
11 Unregistered

Puskaraksa das prabhu has commented in #3 :

“Sri Guru is the external manifestation of the Supersoul… and knows whatever everyone of his disciples does, says or even thinks at any time ! ”

In this conversation with His Holiness Jayadvaita Swami(bramacari at the time), Srila Prabhupada clarifies the perfection of the Acarya. He is not considerered omniscient as God. How Krsna dictates His instructions through the medium of the spiritual master is indeed mystical and as the Supersoul He knows the heart of all. By the grace of Krsna the spiritual master can know the heart of the disciple. It is not a given that the guru knows whatever everyone of his disciples does, says or even thinks at any time. On countless occasions Prabhupada would inquire about the well being of his disciples and was sometimes surprised to hear about their behavior. Other times devotees experienced how Prabhupada seemed to “read their minds” when he would address their unique circumstance with an unsolicited gesture, glance or statement. In a lecture published in the Harmonist(1936), Prabhupada further clarifies the universal application of Sri Guru by stating,”There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from your’s or anyone else’s. There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others.” Thus Sri Guru is the external manifestation of the Supersoul.

Jayadvaita: Because we see… For instance, sometimes the acarya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is…
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Then…
Jayadvaita: …an imperfection.
Prabhupada: That is not the… Then you do not understand. Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acarya.
Jayadvaita: And that is the perfection.
Prabhupada: That is the perfection. Hare Krsna.
Jayadvaita: So we have a misunderstanding about what perfection is?
Prabhupada: Yes. Perfection is here, how he is preaching bhakti cult. That’s all.

Comment posted by Gangamantri dasa on September 12th, 2010
12 Akruranatha

Dear Niscala Prabhvi,

In answer to the point you raised, I think the statements made by Sivarama Swami which I quoted refer to the ordinary situation in which neither the diksa-guru nor the siksa-guru have deviated from the parampara. Under this normal situation, there are considerations of etiquette that apply, and the bona-fide diksa-guru remains the disciple’s main link to the Lord, even where siksa-gurus are of greater stature and devotional power. Neither the bona-fide diksa-guru nor bona-fide siksa-guru deviate from these rules of etiquette, and the disciple takes back the realizations he has learned from the siksa-guru to be confirmed by the diksa-guru.

The situation you raise, of a diksa-guru who has deviated from the bona-fide Vaisnava path, falls outside what Sivarama Swami calls the “Traditional Protocol.”

I recommend Sivarama Swami’s book. He mentions that it is an introduction to a big subject. I do not know if he has further developed these themes in some of his subsequent books (but I look forward to reading them).

Regarding the above point, Sivarama Swami gives a lot of evidence. I only have time and space to quote a little here:

“Siksa-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksa-guru. He is not a siksa-guru. He is a rascal, because that is offense. Gurur avajna… ” (SP lecture, Honolulu, July 4, 1974)

“If K. Maharaja speaks what I speak, then he can be taken as siksa guru. Guru sastra sadhu. The spiritual master is one, that is a fact. K. Swami may be taken as sadhu, not spiritual master, or as instructor guru.” (SP Letter, July 20, 1974)

“If one’s initiating spiritual master and instructing spiritual masters are of small spiritual potency, or in other words, if they do not possess a special power to give spiritual instruction on worship for devotional service, then one may listen from the mouth of other great advanced Vaisnavas and understand the special instructions. However, thereafter the disciple must go to his spiritual master for his confirmation or instructions.” [”Sri Krishna-bhajanamrta” by Narahari Sarakara Thakur, verse 46]

I should make clear that a main theme of Sivarama Swami’s book is that the importance of siksa-gurus and the fact that our sampradaya is based on siksa has been under-emphasized in ISKCON, and this needs to be corrected.

However, the proper etiquette for dealings among siksa and diksa gurus (and their disciples) should also be known and observed.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 14th, 2010
13 Visakha Priya dasi

Vaisnava etiquette is one thing. When Ramacandra Puri criticized Sri Caitanya Mahapra bhu, Mahaprabhu responded by following his instructions, but only until Ramacandra Puri left Jagannath Puri. Thereafter, the Lord resumed His former activities. In the same way, although we need to follow a certain external etiquette, we cannot entrust our spiritual lives to anyone and everyone without discrimination. At least I cannot. It seems to me that only a complete neophyte trying to imitate a mahabhagavata can do so.

One last thing: Even though our line is bhagavat-parampara, not diksa-parampara, we need a diksa-guru. Although Bhaktivinoda Thakura is said to have rejected Bipin Bihari Gosvami, the reason given by Niscala Prabhu seems to indicate that Bipin Bihari Gosvami was a smarta brahmana, not a Vaisnava. Because no Vaisnava, especially a Gaudiya Vaisnava, could possibly think himself or herself greater than Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. And therefore he was fit to be rejected. But we are not talking about this, are we? We could if the need arises. As Kesava Krsna Prabhu mentioned, he and I have plenty experience about that paticular subject. But right now we seem to be discussing bona fide situations, so I will stop here.

Comment posted by Visakha Priya dasi on September 14th, 2010
14 Unregistered

Dear Krishna Kesava Prabhu

Yes, I had assumed that you had voluntarily left aside the evaluation of a specific person playing the role of guru aside, in your benevolent and merciful attempt to encourage juniors if they felt neglegted by so and so…

In that respect, taking shelter in vani is definitely a life long valid instruction !
However, as with Krishna, love is the only clue for everlasting remembrance and ultimate union in separation…

Nevertheless, I had felt duty bound to say a word so that one may not misinterpret your presentation and cheaply transpose what was true with Srila Prabhupada as an uttama adhikari, nitya siddha, premi bhakta, on any person who would still be a conditioned soul, acting on the conditioned platform… who would definitely have a way of relating with his entourage still influenced by the modes of material nature…

Dear Gangamantri Prabhu

What can I say… Everyone speaks according to one’s degree of understanding and realization, as you may judge by yourself with the mood underlying the question you have quoted…

Symptomatically, Srila Prabhupada tries to protect his disciple from making the aparadha of trying to find some fault or so called imperfection with Sri Guru, by interrupting… as (if - for those who have doubts) he knew what was in the mind of this, at the time relatively new in Krishna Consciousness, devotee…

Guru means Guru and the title of Sri Guru refers to he who is endowed Sri, with Krishna prema, by the mercy of both Gaurangi and Gauranga…

Sri Guru is one in essence…

But lessons taught by Caitya Guru can be many, displayed via the medium of various external manifestations, as in the example of the avadhuta brahmana who accepted twenty four gurus…

Srila Prabhupada certainly knew - and if you kindly allows me, I would rather say - knows past, present and future… He is tri kala jna and this would certainly not be possible if he was/is not the external manifestation of the supersoul, a title deserved only by saksad Hari, the liberated soul, the premi bhakta whom we refer to everyday while singing the samsara prayer to the spiritual master, the sat guru…

As such, Srila Prabhupada has proven in numerous examples that he knew what someone did, said or thought, without having to be told !

Now, only when the training intensifies, may one experience such close attention from Sri Guru and intimacy, what to speak of when love solidifies…

Comment posted by Puskaraksa das on September 14th, 2010
15 Unregistered

Akruranatha:“Siksa-guru does not mean he is speaking something against the teachings of the diksa-guru. He is not a siksa-guru. He is a rascal, because that is offense. Gurur avajna…

It is clear from this statement that the essential qualification of guru is that he does not change the message. In our case, that message is not from the diksa guru, as in Prabhupada’s time, but the siksa guru of all of ISKCON, who is Srila Prabhupada. To the extent that our diksa gurus don’t change in any way the message of that siksa guru, they are to that extent, bonafide. And if they are in this way, bonafide, then other siksa gurus should not speak something against their teachings- as that would be a deviation. It is not because the diksa guru is above the authority of the siksa guru, but because he is bonafide- that he does not change the message- that is the criterion of his authority, not that he performed a fire sacrifice and gave a name. And if he is bonafide, the siksa gurus should not contradict his teachings, as that would certainly be deviation.

“If one’s initiating spiritual master and instructing spiritual masters are of small spiritual potency, or in other words, if they do not possess a special power to give spiritual instruction on worship for devotional service, then one may listen from the mouth of other great advanced Vaisnavas and understand the special instructions. However, thereafter the disciple must go to his spiritual master for his confirmation or instructions.”

It is not clear here which spiritual master he needs to go to for confirmation- the siksa or the diksa guru, so this quote is irrelevant. Is there a quote in Sivarama Swami’s book that even if the siksa guru is more spiritually advanced or more pure than the diksa guru, one still needs to confirm the siksa guru’s instructions with the diksa guru? Lacking such evidence, it is to be understood that when Srila Prabhupada speaks of the diksa guru to his disciples, he is referring to himself, and when he says that the siksa gurus should not deviate from the diksa guru, he is referring to his disciple’s not deviating!

This is indicated in the quote you give: If K. Maharaja speaks what I speak, then he can be taken as siksa guru.

And if K. Maharaja has these days become a diksa guru, and Srila Prabhupada is regarded as the siksa guru for his disciples- then their diksa guru must not deviate. Lacking such clarity, opens the doors to minimize the instructions of S. Prabhupada..

Comment posted by niscala on September 15th, 2010
16 KKDasa

There is one important consideration to be made which is often overlooked, and which would render the main diksa argument as inadequate.

Experience tells us that our present diksa gurus are not just diksa gurus in name only. Most if not all, are active siksa gurus as well, through the methods of preaching to one and all. This active dual role suits the importance of siksa over diksa.

Because our diksa gurus are actively preaching as siksa gurus, there should not be a great deal of concern if it appears that disciples are overly attached to the diksa feature. This apparent attachment is given more to the siksa aspect of the diksa guru.

So long as disciples treasure the instructing side of the guru, and render service to the diksa/siksa guru as is necessary, then the balance of service and respect to the principle of guru in various manifestations is upheld.

Ys, Kesava Krsna Dasa.

Comment posted by KKDasa on September 17th, 2010
17 Unregistered

Dear Krishna Kesava Prabhu

I had assumed that you had voluntarily left aside some aspects of Guru tattva as your main intention was to mercifully comfort devotees and highlight the importance of service in separation, based on the unity in between vani (instructions) and vapu (physical presence).

Of course, there is the absolute platform where Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and where Guru refers to Sri Guru, he who is endowed with Sri, with Krishna prema. The ways, such a liberated soul interact with other jivas in general and his disciples in particular is also perfect and transcendental.

However, on the relative platform, when the spiritual teacher is still influenced by the modes of material nature, there is some scope for imperfection and some shortage may be felt…

Nevertheless, one should persevere on the spiritual path and search for the association of Guru, Sastras and Saddhus…and try to be as sincere as possible, for the mercy of Guru & Krishna is available to the sincere souls even if they are fallen, but not to the crooked and duplicitous…

Dear Gangamantri Prabhu

Thank you for your comment and for initiating a discussion on the topic of the potency of Sri Guru, he who is worthy of the title of saksad Hari, whom we chant the glories everyday in the samsara prayer…

In that regard, on the morning walk in Los Angeles on 8 June 1976, Bharadvaja prabhu asked something directly applicable to Prabhupada himself.

“I understand, Srila Prabhupada, that the pure devotee can be as pervasive as Supersoul? By the mercy of Supersoul, he can be present in many places at once?”
“Yes. By the grace of Krsna,” Prabhupada told him, “a devotee can become anything.”
“So in other words,” Duryodhana-guru asked, “that means the pure devotee can be omniscient?”
“Everything,” Prabhupada confirmed. “God is omniscient, so a pure devotee can be omniscient by the grace of God.”

So, the answer to the question “Can Sri Guru, by the grace of Krishna, as the external manifestation of the Supersoul, know whatever everyone of his disciples does, says or even thinks, at any time?” is yes.

However, that doesn’t mean that he will be aware of everything, everywhere, at any time. Not only, as you rightly say, because he is not God and doesn’t have all the powers of God, but because he is only endowed by God with the powers and knowledge useful for the fulfillment of his mission.

Comment posted by Puskaraksa das on September 18th, 2010
18 Unregistered

Srila Bhaktisiddantha nicely explains the range of action of Sri Guru:

« It is not for us or anyone to fully know the ways of God. We are only aware of that much of the divine activity as is helpful to us for His service. The least particle of such knowledge is more than sufficient for all the purposes of our pure souls. The person who knows God does not understand His ways in the sense in which Godhead understands them. He understands them in the measure that is necessary for having his conscious share in those activities as a subservient of His subservients. Admission to the plane of service is equivalent to the cessation of spiritual ignorance. Spiritual enlightenment does not mean that the person so enlightened understands all things as God Himself understands them, either of this or of any other world. What such a person actually understands is his own relationship to and location in the uncovered plane of the Absolute Reality. Instead of being an insignificant ignorant actor in this mundane cosmos, he finds himself to be the most insignificant conscious entity in the plane of the supermundane sphere of all-existence, all-knowledge and all-joy. He consciously shares in the life of that realm in the tiny measure of his eligibility for the service of God. »

Of course, a conditioned soul may not even conceive of what is the “eligibility for the service of God” of he who is worthy of the title of “Jagat Guru”!

Another reason for a liberated soul, mercifully coming down from the spiritual world to liberate the jives, to appear both as an empowered Acarya and as a meek and humble human being can be witnessed in the example of Jesus, of our Srila Prabhupada and of Sri Guru in general, as Sri Guru (the bonafide spiritual master) is one in essence.

For instance, Jesus could perform miracles and foresee the course of events, including the betrayal of Judas leading to his crucifixion, but he also seemingly acted as a meek and humble jiva, addressing God on the cross “Father, do not abandon me…”, while still praying, in the mood of Prahlada Maharaja, for the forgiveness of those who had tortured him “Father, please forgive them, as they don’t realize what there are doing…”.

Therefore, Srila Jiva Gosvami explains that Krsna empowers His pure devotee with His own qualities. Krsna has so many qualities, and one of His best qualities is that He empowers His pure devotees with sarvajnata and mugdata: omniscience and bewilderment or lack of knowledge.

Comment posted by Puskaraksa das on September 18th, 2010
19 Unregistered

These two qualities are simultaneously present, sarvajnata and mugdata. As a matter of fact, these two qualities are also simultaneously in the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna Himself. On one hand He is all-knowing and on the other hand He is like a cowherd boy, sometimes bewildered and as though knowing nothing.

In this way, in one of the Vedanta sutras, it is stated that when Sri Guru, comes to this world as an empowered acarya, he performs what is called naravata-lila. This means that he acts like a human being, otherwise the general mass would not be able to follow him. Although a perfect soul, he behaves like a human being. In this way anyone can follow him and benefit from his example.

However, rather than try to understand Sri Guru according to our relative level of spiritual advancement at a given time (as illustrated in the example you quoted) and try to see the glories of Sri Guru, which are unfathomable, the best attitude is to try and act, speak and think in such a way that Sri Guru will see us - that is to say will wish to look at us - the same way that Srila Bhaktisiddantha Sarasvati Thakur Maharaja Prabhupada and our Srila Prabhupada have explained that rather than try to see Krishna, who is the seer (Purusha), we should try to act, speak and think (alike a genuine tridandi sannayasi) in such a way that Krishna will see us, i.e. will take pleasure in looking at us.

“Krsna appears in two ways. He appears as antaryami, the Supersoul within himself, within oneself, and He appears as the spiritual master, externally. Caitya-guru and diksa-guru. Caitya-guru… As caitya-guru, as the supreme spiritual master, He is in everyone’s heart. And His representative… In order to help externally the sincere person, He sends the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master from outside and the caitya-guru from inside, they are helping. The Supreme Personality is helping a devotee, a real, serious devotee two ways: from within, from without. The Caitanya-caritamrta therefore says that krsnera prakasa, manifestation of Krsna, a spiritual master. And Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura says, yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasya aprasadad na gatih kuto ‘pi: “If I can satisfy my spiritual master, then I understand that Krsna is satisfied. And if I cannot satisfy my spiritual master, then I have no other way to approach Krsna.” These songs we sing every day …/…

Comment posted by Puskaraksa das on September 18th, 2010
20 Unregistered

So my Guru Maharaja used to say that “Instead of seeing Krsna, you serve so faithfully that Krsna will see you.” That should be the process. Krsna is omnipresent. He can see you. He can understand you, what are doing. So we have to execute devotional service in such a faithful way that Krsna will see us. Then you will be successful. “Don’t try to see Krsna. Try to become seen by Krsna.” That was my Guru Maharaja’s instruction.”
Srila Prabhupada Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam, 02-10-71, Gorakhpur

As one makes progress along the path, one may feel the glance of Sri Guru and one may experience more and more the presence of both Krishna as Caitya Guru within one’s heart and Sri Guru by one’s side in the course of one’s service, which made Srila Prabhupada say, that he only accompanied his spiritual master in the US…

So, let us pray that we act, speak and even think is such a way that both Krishna, seated on the lotus of our heart, and Sri Guru who knows the hearts, may be pleased by our devotional service and may grant us the boon of becoming their eternal servants…

Hare Krishna

All glories to your service
All glories to Srila Prabhupada
All glories to Sri Guru & Sri Gauranga

Your servant
Puskaraksa das

Comment posted by Puskaraksa das on September 18th, 2010
21 Visakha Priya dasi

Regarding Niscala Prabhu’s question about whether we need to confirm with one’s diksa-guru even though the siksa-guru is more advanced than the diksa-guru, we have the fascinating example of Syamananda Prabhu (formerly known as Dukhi Krsnadasa). He was a disciple of Hrdaya Caitanya, who was in sakhya rasa. Dukhi Krsnadasa was sent by his guru to study under Srila Jiva Gosvami in Vrindavan. Jiva Gosvami was in madhurya-rasa and it so happened that Dukhi Krsnadasa was also in madhurya-rasa. It’s a long story, which Satyaraja Prabhu has recorded in a book portraying the lives of Narottama Dasa Thakura, Srinivasa Acarya, and Syamananda Pandit. The way it is portrayed is controversial in Gaudiya circles, but in any case it would appear that the diksa-guru is to be seen as the ultimate authority and that if he happens to be wrong the needful will be done through divine intervention. Hare Krsna! (All we need is faith. A tall order at times.)

Comment posted by Visakha Priya dasi on September 20th, 2010
22 Akruranatha

I hope I have not accidentally misrepresented Sivarama Swami’s very good book. I mentioned it because it addresses these topics. I also pointed out that its conclusions challenged some of my own assumptions and that even the author admitted that the research he did in preparing to write the book made him reject earlier assumptions.

However, I want to make clear that these issues (about the diksa guru normally being the most prominent in a disciple’s life, and the siksa gurus acting as assistants to the diksa guru, even if they have greater stature and are more advanced Vaisnavas) are not the central focus of the book.

[Aside from pointing out that normal state of affairs, he also describes situations in which that normal arrangement may not apply, and where a disciple initiated by one guru may form a more prominent relationship with one of the siksa gurus. It is nice to learn there are traditions about all these things to guide us, going back many generations, and that we are not reinventing the wheel, so to speak.]

Sivarama Swami does deal extensively with Srila Prabhupada’s preeminent position as Founder-Acarya and as that great devotee who, it had been predicted, would spread Krishna consciousness all over the world. No one who reads this book can say that Mahartaja is minimizing the position of Srila Prabhupada.

However, Maharaja is also describing a system where devotees who are initiated disciples of one spiritual master may also have guru-disciple relationships with other devotees, like their GBC, their TP, sankirtan leader, head pujari or temple commander, as their siksa gurus.

Mainly, he is out to describe the traditional etiquette and practices within the authentic Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition and examine how they can be implemented in ISKCON, and why they should be. In doing so, he is careful to try to understand the tradition thoroughly and scientifically, based on authoritative evidence and his mature understanding of the science of Krishna consciousness, rather than be motivated by “current events” within ISKCON social relations to arrive at different conclusions.

He seeks to emphasize that siksa, or spiritual instruction, is the real basis for all guru-disciple relationships. It is not normally the case that a diksa guru just gives a mantra and a name and you never hear from him again. Normally the Vaisnava who gives extensive instruction becomes one’s diksa guru later on, and accepts a deep commitment to train the disciple.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 22nd, 2010

By Kesava Krsna Dasa

Within such a huge organisation like Iskcon, it is not surprising to sometimes experience less of the affection we expected. There are several reasons for this. But if a disciple feels this way about his or her guru in good standing, does it indicate a neglect of some sort?


An unexpected encounter

By Acintya Caitanya Dasa

Jananivas Prabhu's service was to bring frankincense to Srila Prabhupada's room in the evening. He mentioned that usually after you fill a room with frankincense, you open the doors and windows so that the mosquitos go out with the smoke



Kulimela Australia!

Countdown to Kulimela Australia 2010/11

Fellow Kulis, Vaishnava youth, devotees of Krsna, and associates,

Kulimela France has come and gone and by all reports it was an excellent gathering so congratulations to the entire team who organised and pulled off that event and made it what it was, and to all of the people who attended and participated in it.

It is now time to start looking forward to the Australian Mela at the end of this year/start of next year. It is not too early to start planning ahead for your journey down under and now would be a great time to book flights as there are a number of very cheap flights available ($1000 return from LA as an example) so it would be wise to book early to save your dollars to give you more spending money for when you’re over here.

Just a reminder that the Kulimela week will be from the 3rd to the 9th of Jan 2011 while the week before that (27th of Dec to 2nd of Jan) will be packed with tours and adventures and give everyone a chance to get to know each other while exploring this beautiful country. There will be day trips to the pristine beaches, a trip to the national parks, local wildlife adventures, bushwalking, sightseeing and a number of other activities to keep you entertained while the international Kulis get over their jet lag and acclimatise to our wonderful summer.

We would like to encourage people to come in that first week as it will be a great way to begin to get to know each other and an easy way for you to see some of the local attractions. A full schedule for both weeks will be announced shortly but so far our plans for the first week are:

Monday the 27th of December – Registration, relaxation

Tuesday the 28th of December – A day trip to beautiful Byron Bay with options for surfing lessons, snorkelling or scuba diving

Wednesday the 29th of December – A trip to Currumbin Wildlife Sanctuary where you will get an opportunity to get up close and personal with Australia’s unique wildlife, followed by a trip to the nearby rock pools for a refreshing swim.

Thursday the 30th of December – Climb nearby Mt Warning – an extinct volcano with spiritual significance to the local Aboriginal people.

Friday the 31st of December – A trip up to the sunny Gold Coast with opportunities to check out many of the pristine beaches, Surfers Paradise, and the nearby theme parks followed by bhajans on the beach through till midnight to bring in the new year in an auspicious manner.

We have many exciting plans and special guests already for the Mela week, including; HG Dina Bhandu Prabhu, HG Sruti Kirti Prabhu, hopefully Radhannath Swami, cooking with Kurma workshops, valuable and relatable seminars, and a long list of quality entertainment and music with names such as: Gauravani, Sri Prahlad, The Ghost Brothers and Azitiz already confirmed as attending with many more local and international acts yet to be confirmed.

We would like to welcome people to start getting in early and expressing their interest to attend so that we can start to formulate a rough guide of numbers. If you have any special need or requirements or would like to arrange a particular level of accommodation, please contact us as soon as possible so that we can point you in the right direction. I have a list of local motels, hotels, hostels and caravan parks so if you would like to book accommodation at one of those places I suggest you get in early and let me know so I can pass the information on to you, or it’s all on the Kulimela Australia Facebook group page.

Leer mas

By Kuli Mela Association

Just a reminder that the Kulimela week will be from the 3rd to the 9th of Jan 2011 while the week before that (27th of Dec to 2nd of Jan) will be packed with tours and adventures and give everyone a chance to get to know each other while exploring this beautiful country


It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha

It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha


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It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha

Gauragopala Dasa: To say we DID NOT come from Vaikuntha is to say we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea.

He has explained that this condition in the impersonal Brahmajyoti is already a fallen state, Srila Prabhupada further explains that originally we ALL have come down from Vaikuntha to the material creation many millions of years ago. And then, out of frustration of trying to enjoy this temporary material existence, some of us have devolved even further to eventually fall into deeper illusion, with great difficulty, to that dormant motionless inactive conscious state known collectively as the impersonal Brahmajyoti (collectively because of all the billions of baddha-jivas vibrating dormantly there).

It is these souls (baddha-jivas) who foolishly think this impersonal Brahmajyoti to be our origin having forgotten their real perpetual nitya-siddha body that exists outside the limited realms of the material creation (mahat-tattva) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti or effulgence. And it must be stressed that, like the material creation, the impersonal Brahmajyoti is also a temporary condition of the numerous baddha-jivas who strive to take shelter within the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada - “There are two kinds of marginal living entities: nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The actual constitutional position of every marginal living entity is nitya-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha” New York lecture on Caitanya-Caritamrta, July 13, 1976

Srila Prabhupada – “Eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)? We cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), because we are part and parcel of Krishna. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated (nitya-siddha). But because we wanted to imitate Krishna, we wanted to become Krishna, as the Mayavadis want to do, therefore in the spiritual world, Krishna is the only enjoyer. (Bhagavad Gita as it is lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada – “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . .” Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

Srila Prabhupada - “A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly.” Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature. We can misuse such independence with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings. That choice is always there even in Goloka and must be there if genuine love is to exist. It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha. It’s all to do with a combination of choice and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity. An even then due to that smallness and choice, we only ‘think, imagine or dream’ we are fallen that we become fallen.

The following quotes overwhelmingly reveal that Srila Prabhupada has said we have come down from Vaikuntha however, most never again choose to make that foolish mistake, although on the other hand there is always the chance, due to free-will and the God (Krishna) given ability to choose, we can fall down and without that choice there can be no selfless love.

Srila Prabhupada - “After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world . . . There is possibility . . . even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world.” Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974

Many do not understand the true facts of how we actually did come down from Goloka. And it’s got nothing to do with sleeping on a bed in Goloka, as some foolishly believe. Their presentation of the ‘sleeping on a bed in Goloka’ philosophy and how the jiva falls from Goloka is absolute nonsense!! The understanding of the word dream in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka has nothing to do with sleeping anywhere; it’s all to do with time.

The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka or Vaikuntha simply caused by their non-Krishna conscious mistaken desires.

Such selfish desires place the marginal living entity outside of Goloka as their nitya-baddha lower self that enters the mahat-tattva (material creation).

Now it is important to understand that while they are in the mahat-tattva, no time passes in Goloka-Vrndavana because of the ‘eternal presence’ of Krsna Consciousness there.

In other words when the marginal living entity re-establishes again the memory of their nitya-siddha Krsna Conscious bodily identity in Goloka, it will appear as if NO time has passed whatsoever when once again the marginal living entity is in the shelter AS their nitya-siddha body within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka-Vrndavana.

Dr. John Mize – “The question that bothers me in part is then why would the soul… Because I understand your conception that the soul is part of the spiritual sky originally or part of God, and it somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride. And it seems puzzling why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That is his independence”.

Dr. John Mize – “Independence”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Instead of using independence properly, when he misuses independence he falls”.

Dr. John Mize – “I’m sorry, he what?”

Srila Prabhupada – “He falls down”.

Dr. John Mize – “He falls”.

Srila Prabhupada – “He falls down on account of his independence. Just like you have got independence. You are sitting here. You can go immediately. You may not like to hear me”.

Dr. John Mize – “I wouldn’t what?”

Srila Prabhupada – “You may not like to hear me”.

Dr. John Mize – “Yes”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That independence you have got. I have got also. I may not talk with you. So that independence is always there. Similarly, as part and parcel of God, the, it is the duty of the soul to be always engaged in the service of the Lord”.

Dr. John Mize – “Always engaged in…?”

Srila Prabhupada – “In the service of the Lord”.

Dr. John Mize – “Service of the Lord”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. Whatever I am ordering, it is immediately carrying out. I say, “Make it like this.” He will, it will do. So… But this is dead matter. It is acting mechanically. The brain directs immediately the finger and it acts, like machine. This whole body is just like a machine, but soul is not machine mechanical part. It is spiritual part.

So therefore, as I am directing the finger, as being machine, it is working, but if somebody else, a friend or servant, I may direct him to do something, he may not do it. So when the soul misuses the independence, then he falls down. That is material life.

Material life means misusing the independence of soul. Just like a son. A son’s duty is to obey the father. But he may not obey. That is his madness. So when the soul, misusing the independence, becomes mad, he is sent in this material world”.

Dr. John Mize – “It is puzzling to me that one would be so foolish”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Because by independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in the Bhagavad-Gita, that yathecchasi tathä kuru. Find out this verse in the Eighteenth Chapter.

That independence is there. After instructing the whole Bhagavad-Gita to Arjuna, Krishna gave him the independence, “Now whatever you like, you can do.” Krishna never forced him to accept the teachings of Bhagavad-Gita. He gave him the independence, “Now whatever you like, you can do.” And he agreed. “Yes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say.” The same independence. Yes”.

Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.

Dr. John Mize – “So we’re among the 10%.

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down”.

Dr. John Mize – “Does Krishna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Krishna? Yes, Krishna may know because He is omniscient”.

Dr. John Mize – “Are more souls falling all the time?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency”.

Dr. John Mize – “The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Dr. John Mize – “From where does that tendency come?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Bhagavad Gita as it is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia (To Madhudvisa Swami)

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Devotee – “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.

Srila Prabhupada – “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”

Bhaktijana – “Has my soul ever been liberated?”

Srila Prabhupada – “That you know. I do not know”.

Bhaktijana – “If I was once liberated…”

Srila Prabhupada – “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness’ meaning we are forever fresh and youthful in our nitya-siddha body. Such a spiritual body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s.

What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity! This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.

In other words, this entrance into the dormant impersonal Brahmajyoti condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their ‘full potential awareness’ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka. In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious selfishly active dream (or thought) condition originating from the marginal living entity in Goloka.

Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body due to always being a Krishna Conscious bodily form).

This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.

There are others also that a resemble fire and extreme cold. Sarva gatah - life is everywhere in the mahat-tattva and most, over 75%, we cannot see with our biological eyes and our scientific technological extensions like the Electron Microscope and the Humble Telescope.

Hare Krishna, your fallen servant Gauragopala Dasa

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1 Gauragopala dasa

On many occasions Srila Prabhupada further elaborates on his wonderful purports in the association of his close disciples. I remember in Sydney he called devotees in to his room and preached to midnight, being the guard at the door, I heard these wonderful conversations. The main point to understand is that there is no difference between Prabhupada’s books, lectures, morning walks and personal instructions, in fact why would there be?

Some have said that “Vaikuntha” means the spiritual sky, NOT necessarily “Vaikuntha-Loka.”

Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada further explains this clearly -

Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia (To Madhudvisa Swami)

Actually our perpetual origins are directly from Krishna’s pastimes in Goloka because originally EVERY JIVA SOUL is a selfless nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna within His pastimes.

Many also quote Sb 3.16.26 – ‘The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode’.

And yes that is correct because the marginal living entity only ‘thinks’ imagines’ or ‘dream’ they fall down and in actual fact their nitya-siddha body never leaves Goloka as Srila Prabhupada explains -

Srila Prabhupada – “We are always with Krsna but we are now in a situation where ‘we think’ we have fallen” April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

And this -

Srila Prabhupada - “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. Actually he has not fallen”. http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 12th, 2010
2 Gauragopala dasa

And this - Srila Prabhupada – “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.

And this - Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972)

And this -Srila Prabhupada - “So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body”. Germany, June 22, 1974

And this - When the marginal living entity first chooses to pursue their own self-centred desires and thus forgets his relationship with Krishna, he is immediately overwhelmed by the influence of Maya, in other words, one first chooses to ignore Krishna that simultaneously puts them in the realm of Maya or within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha). But when we want to take Krsna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state (As nitya-baddha) that can only exist in the mahat-tattva material creation, the impersonal Brahmajyoti, or the Body of Maha-Vishnu. We can only enter the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu after entering the mahat-tattva as nitya-baddha, to do so means we have not remebered our original Krsna Conscious body

In this dreaming state we forget our actual position as nitya-siddha and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer in the mahat-tattva. This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming state known as nitya-baddha. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully consider it.

This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 12th, 2010
3 Gauragopala dasa

Paramahamsa – “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and the two gatekeepers, they returned?”

Srila Prabhupada – “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.

Paramahamsa – “If we want”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Paramahamsa – “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Paramahamsa – “Fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?” Srila Prabhupada - “Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like one goes to the prison house, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prison house. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that”

Srila Prabhupada - “The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: “Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore.”

Paramahamsa – “So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

So this means we always have a choice and some, less than 10%, choose to leave Krishna and by doing that, they forget their ‘rasa’ relationship with Krishna, they forget who they really are, their nitya-siddha Krsna Conscious body.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 12th, 2010
4 Gauragopala dasa

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we re already serving Krsna?

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.

Devotee – “I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire”Melbourne, June 25, 1974

Devotee – “You commented that, Swami Prabhupada, that everyone has a natural desire to have relationship with Krsna, but that because…

Srila Prabhupada – “Not desire, but he is already established”.

Devotee – “ Established.

Srila Prabhupada – “That is covered. Just like your relationship with somebody as father and son, it is established. You might have forgot, you might have left your home since a very, very long time, and you do not know who is your father, but there is some father. That is a fact. Nobody can say, “No. I, I have, I am born without father.” Nobody can say. One has father, but it may be that he has forgotten his father.

So this Krsna consciousness movement is that we have got some relationship with the Supreme Lord. That we have now forgotten. So it is not the question of desire. It is there. You don’t desire to become one’s son, you are already one’s son.

You simply do not know. Similarly, your relationship with Krsna is there, every one of us, but I have forgotten; I do not know. This Krsna consciousness practice will revive your relationship in what way…, in which way you are related with Krsna. It is not that you have to desire.

No. It is already there. You have to desire only how to revive it, that’s all. That is Krsna consciousness. It is not an artificial thing. Just like we are establishing some relationship with somebody or you are my father or you are my wife, you are my husband. No. It is already there. Simply we have to find out.

That will be revealed when you are perfect in Krsna consciousness, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati, you are freed from all material contamination, and you are perfectly situated in devotional service; it will be at once revealed: “Oh, you are related to Krsna. You will have to wait for that”. Bhagavad-gita Los Angeles, November 23,

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 12th, 2010
5 Gauragopala dasa

Several have assumed that “falling down from Vaikuntha” means the impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of the spiritual sky and not “Vaikuntha-Loka.” however Srila Prabhupada rejects that claim in his teachings and explains clearly we have foolishly come from Krishna’s Pastimes - (Lecture August 6, 1973) – Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” Srila Prabhupada clearly teaches us - These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970, which all mean, “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter 1972 to Madhudvisa Swami)

Srila Prabhupada – “This is factual evidence showing that it is possible at any time to fall down from the Lord’s association . . . Once fallen and separated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead’s association, one becomes a candidate for suffering in the material world.” (Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya-lila 10.65, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body”. (Germany, June 22, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” (Original Hare Krsna album)

Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)

The people who claim we have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or a ‘clear sheet of consciousness’ sometimes alleges that those confronted with the choice of Krishna or the mahat-tattva are conditioned souls and cannot be engaged in the Lord’s personal association. They further assert that those who have attained the personal association of the Lord never misuse their free will. However, for there to be genuine love or service, there must be free-will other wise we are simply mindless porns in a collective.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 14th, 2010
6 Gauragopala dasa

What is possible in the Goloka as ones perpetual selfless Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body is endless and full of marvel, revelation and keenness and way beyond the ordinary relativity of the conditioned side of the marginal living entities (nitya-baddha). The events and dealings within the Goloka are truly within the unique nature of the absolute devotion known as the ‘eternal presence of Krsna’s loving pastimes’.

Some have clearly misunderstood the marginal living entities and wrongly believe they are not tatastha-s’akti also in Goloka and Vaikuntha and that there is a third kind of living entity that is above the concept of marginal. The fact is there are only two types of living entities, Vishnu-tattva and jiva-tattva (marginal or tatastha-s’akti) as Srila Prabhupada explains

Srila Prabhupada – “In the Padma Purana, wherein it is said that there are two kinds of spiritual entities; one is called the jiva, and the other is called the Supreme Lord”. (Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”)

When we talk of fall down from Goloka, it will always be a sensitive subject because some will always believe once in the Goloka pastimes of Lord Krishna, one never falls down and the fact is, in most cases they don’t.

Actually there are some living entities who NEVER fall down from their position in Vaikuntha and Goloka or even if they enter the mahat-tattva because they are not marginal like us; these billions upon billions of Living Entities are not like us (jiva-tattva [tatastha-s’akti] or marginal living entities) they are all Vishnu Tattva. They are everywhere in Goloka and Vaikuntha, some as Gopis, Cow heard boys, Village elders or residents etc and some come disguised in various bodily forms to the material worlds.

The Caitanya Caritamrita explains this further, so many of Lord Caitanya’s associates are all Vishnu-tattva. There are Vishnu-tattvas who have manifested many of their unique personalities at the same time during Lord Caitanya’s lila on this planet but only our purity or the causeless mercy of Lord Caitanya and His humble selfless devotees can begin to understand and appreciate such transcendental mysterious.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 14th, 2010
7 Gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada - “Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila–both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead” Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972.

What does Srila Prabhupada mean by his following comment? -“Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery”.

From other comments from Srila Prabhupada, we can understand that the above comment ONLY refers to where we have previously come from, was it from Krishna-lila or from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya)?

What is meant here is the Brahmasayujya dormant condition of the baddha-jiva consciousness was attained either in this mahat-tattva (material creation) or from a previous one after much austerity to become totally inactively and free from gross and subtle material bodies and therefore attaining a dreamless dream state as part of the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti.

This is what the impersonal Brahmajyoti is, a collective of individual baddha-jiva souls vibrating inactively who have the appearance of living bright effulgence light particles or rays. Also if one still has material desires at the dissolution of the material creation, then they are temporary placed within the Body of Maha-Vishnu in a dormant state until placed again into a new maha-tattva from the glance of Maha-Vishnu as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam

Because this condition of merging into the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu is temporary, the baddha-jiva will eventually AGAIN fall and begin their material embodied existence? This what Srila Prabhupada is referring to when he says, “Brahmasayujya may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery”.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 16th, 2010
8 Gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada is NOT saying that we can ‘originate’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti as some claim, he is not saying that at all, he is only referring to our present status which means that in some previous birth in the material creation, we may have fallen out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti dormant consciousness (Brahmasayujya), that was previously attained from the material creation after great difficult austerity to suppress material desires (usually the impersonalist yogis).

Or we may have never been to the impersonal Brahmajyoti because we had previously, some millions of year’s ago, come down directly from Goloka as nitya-baddha.

As far as our ‘origin’ is concerned, Srila Prabhupada has previously answered that very clearly. Srila Prabhupada - “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

He rejected the idea we ‘originated’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya) and even the Body of Maha-Vishnu who plants the fallen ‘baddha-jivas’ (the lower secondary state of the marginal living entity) into His mahat-tattva creation.

Srila Prabhupada – “Brahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss”

Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist.

This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presents of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.

Srila Prabhupada - “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.

In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.

Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things.
http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 16th, 2010
9 Gauragopala dasa

Several do not appreciate the accurate details of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using our free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body to chase our material desires.

The truth is we are perpetually in Krishna’s pastimes as nitya-siddha right now, within that eternal presence of selfless blissful devotion where nothing factual can perish however, because selfish desires are not a factual reality and not part of the make-up of Goloka or Vaikuntha, they are projected as a spin off reality to mahat-tattva (material creation) that is under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu.

Such self-absorbed mundane self centred thoughts and coveted dreams convince us we are not there with Krishna (as we desired) even though we are ALWAYS with Krishna. In this way, such egocentric dreams and thoughts, like a veil, block out our connection to Krishna by moving us ‘sub-consciously’ to the separated mahat-tattva reality of Maha-Vishnu where we become bogged down in ignorance due to being covered by various subtle and gross material bodies.

We therefore experience this secondary nature (nitya-baddha) to our marginal nitya-siddha identity simply because we choose to do so that places us outside of Goloka and within the material creation.

Even though material realities (the mahat-tattva) are real, there temporary nature makes them an illusion in the face of the perpetual presence of Goloka. And it’s also got nothing to do with sleeping on a bed in Goloka and imaging we are in the material world as some foolishly and disdainfully believe. No, it’s not that type of dreaming at all. Their fabrication of the ‘sleeping on a bed in Goloka’ philosophy of how the jiva falls from Goloka is absolute nonsense!!

The understanding of the word ‘dream’ in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka is significant in Srila Prabhupada’s preaching yet has nothing to do with ‘sleeping’ anywhere; it’s all to do with time. because we don’t really fall, we only think we do as Srila Prabhupada has taught us.

The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu. The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka simply caused by their non-Krsna Consciousness

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 16th, 2010
10 Gauragopala dasa

Lord Krishna states that the constitutional nature of all marginal living beings is that they are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.

Srila Prabhupada – ““Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa.

By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position. We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity.

The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction.

As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as.

When again we achieve deliverance from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotees, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we begin to make a distinction of who we really our that separates us from the material dream condition (nitya-baddha fallen consciousness).

Alan Ginsberg – “How did the material covering begin?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Begin?”

Alan Ginsberg – “As the material shadow. How did we fall into that?

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Yes. That is very natural. . . Because jiva, although para-sakti, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Krishna”.

Alan Ginsberg – “… How did we fall into that?”

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 16th, 2010
11 Gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada – “In the spiritual world, Krishna is the enjoyer. And all others, they are enjoyed–predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, ‘The Lord is predominator; we have to serve.’ When this service attitude is impaired, that–‘Why serve Krishna? Why not ourself?’–that is Maya”. - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, OH 5-14-69

Srila Prabhupada - “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.” http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 16th, 2010
12 varahanarasimha

Srila Prabhupada has stated wether we fell from Vaikuntha or Brahman is not important
we are in a house of fire, samsara of the material world ,chant Hare Krishna and get out and go back to Godhead, personally this subject is a waste of time in my humble opinion.You are in a house of fire and worried where it started and when, is Srila Prabhupadas explanation.Also he added wether the crow lands first and then the fruit falls or wether the crow was there and then the fruit fell, Kaka -tala argument, now we are not in Brahman or in Vaikuntha so lets just chant Hare Krishna and go back home back to Godhead where everyone is serving Krsna free from this kind of arguments and refutations

Comment posted by varahanarasimha on September 18th, 2010
13 Gauragopala dasa

As Srila Prabhupada says in the Srimad Bhagavatam 5.14 Summary - “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krishna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world. As stated in the Prema-vivarta: krishna-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare. This is the reason the pure spirit soul falls down to the material world.

Due to his activities under the influence of the three modes of material nature, the living entity takes different positions in different species. Sometimes he is a demigod in the heavenly planets and sometimes a most insignificant creature in the lower planetary systems.

In this regard, Śrīla Narottama dāsa Thākura says, nānā yoni sadā phire: the living entity passes through various species. Kardarya bhakshana kare: he is obliged to eat and enjoy abominable things. Tāra janma adhah-pāte yāya: in this way his whole life is spoiled.

Without the protection of an all-merciful Vaishnava the conditioned soul cannot get out of the clutches of Maya” Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.14 Summary

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down”.

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire. Because he has associated with a different type of material quality…”

Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done? Because you are son of God—God has got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere” Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 19th, 2010
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The comment by varahanarasimha Prabhu is an instance where Srila Prabhupada says just get out of the material world and do not worry how you got here however, Srila Prabhupada also said the opposite to that and that we should try to understand how we came to this material world. The following conversation took place in Mayapur on February 19, 1976

Guru-kripa – “They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krishna in such conditions? This is a very…”

Srila Prabhupada – “That is independence. That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate”.

Sudama – “It is very hard thing to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada – “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda – “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel…”

Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada – “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda – “He can return”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 20th, 2010
15 Gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada explains in the Fourth Canto Chapter 28 text 50-54 of Srimad-Bhagavatam how we have all originated from Goloka where Narada Muni narrates the story of King Puranjana.

In the texts that concerns the revelation that we have all come down from Goloka or Vaikuntha to this material world, Puranjana has just died and his widow, Vaidarbhi, is lamenting distressingly. A brahmana approaches the queen and introduces himself as her “eternal friend.” The brahmana, who is actually Krishna, says to the anguished queen

“My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can’t you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My Company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world. My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Manasa lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home”.

Srila Prabhupada here explains - “You gave up My Company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world” Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53

This clearly refers to the soul’s departure from the Vaikuntha to the material world, the fact is though the marginal living entity NEVER really falls, non of us actually fall, we only think, dream and imagine we fall due to our selfish desires that cover our original spiritual vision like clouds that cover the Sun.

Factually no souls fall from Goloka/Vaikuntha. We just have to comprehend what that means by our personal realizations and surrender to Krishna’s pure devotees.

The choice is entirely up to the marginal living entity. Those marginal living beings (nitya-siddhas) that love/serve Krishna are situated in their full potential in the spiritual world in the complete ‘AWARENESS’ of who they perpetually are, which is their nitya-siddha body whereas those marginal living entities who choose to ignore Krishna and their nitya-siddha body simply project their consciousness to the mahat-tattva as their nitya-baddha secondary state which is but a non Krishna conscious echo of their true nitya-siddha identity in Goloka.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 20th, 2010
16 varahanarasimha

yes the many quotes are nice and we in ISKCON surely favor the idea that we fell from the Spiritual planets like Vaikuntha or Goloka, Srila Prabhupada surely seemed to favor this.But we have had members of ISKCON that has left ISKCON due to this issue, and it is not worth the controversy : how can we seemingly also contradict Srila Prabupadas words:
this is one of many examples
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.1.35

dehendriyāsu-hīnānāḿ
vaikuṇṭha-pura-vāsinām
deha-sambandha-sambaddham
etad ākhyātum arhasi

TRANSLATION

The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.
PURPORT

This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Nārada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired from him, saying, etad ākhyātum arhasi: “only you can explain the reason.” From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha.

Comment posted by varahanarasimha on September 20th, 2010
17 varahanarasimha

yes certainly : , “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter 1972 to Madhudvisa Swami)

yes but if we read the same letter, Srila Prabhupada clearly explains that this discussion is useless, though at the end of the letter he surely gives his own version.

yes certainly : , “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter 1972 to Madhudvisa Swami)
But why disturb those with a different view on this? and who take Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to heart?
There are two kinds of living entitles. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. Ever-conditioned means those who are in this material world, they do not know when they came in touch with this material world. Neither do they know when they will be liberated. They are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. And similarly, there are nitya-siddhas. Nitya-siddha means they never come in contact with this material world, and even they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha. Try to understand. (Bg. Lecture, 1973)

The position of the nitya-siddhas is explained in the Padma Purana in connection with the narration of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and Satyabhama-devi. The Lord tells Satyabhama, “My dear Satyabhama-devi, I have descended to this earthly planet by the request of Lord Brahma and other demigods. Those who are born into this family of Yadu are all My eternal associates. My dear wife, you should not consider that My associates are ever separated from Me; they are My personal expansions, and as such, you must know that they are almost as powerful as I am. Because of their transcendental qualities, they are very, very dear to Me, as I am very, very dear to them.” (Nectar of Devotion)

and again back to SB 7.1.35 purport:” In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight. Otherwise, as Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira says, aśraddheya ivābhāti: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuṇṭha seems unbelievable. How Jaya and Vijaya came to this material world is explained by Nārada Muni as follows.”

yes even Yuddhishistira Maharaja had doubts why and how could anyone fall from Vaikuntha…lets drop it and go on Harinama

Comment posted by varahanarasimha on September 20th, 2010
18 Gauragopala dasa

Every marginal living entity has seen Krishna because it was His association from whence we have all originated from. ALL OF US HAVE COME FROM GOLOKA-VRNDAVANA, from an origin that is in a perpetual state of originality that is forever fresh, forever youthful without birth or death, beginning or end.

Srila Prabhupada –”Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila and sport” Letter 1972 to Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago.” - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture London, July 30, 1971

The irony here is no one really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana. The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually only sub-consciously in the material world while their svarupa remains eternally in Goloka.

In this way, not only do they have no memory of their ‘eternal svarupa’ nitya-siddha body, but also have deliberately separated themselves from the ‘eternal presence’ of Krishna Consciousness due to their selfish desires to enjoy without Krishna, which also means they have knowingly separated themselves from the AWARENESS of their perpetual nitya-siddha body which is their real authentic eternal self.

In other works, in Goloka we are our body while in the material creation (mahat-tattva) we are covered by many different material bodies.

Furthermore, by choosing to leave Krishna’s eternal presence in Goloka, it’s almost as if the AWARENESS of the living entity’s nitya siddha body is suspended within that eternal presence of Goloka due to sub-consciously projecting themselves out of Krishna’s eternal presence to the mahat-tattva time frame of past, present and future as nitya-baddha,

In doing so, they place themselves out of sync or out of step with the eternal presence of pure beginingless Krishna Consciousness that has no past or future time duration due to its perpetuality within the eternal moment of Krsnaloka where their ‘permanent ‘genuine’ bodily self is serving Krsna without beginning or end

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 21st, 2010
19 Gauragopala dasa

Only the material creation was created whereas the Vaikuntha realm and Goloka-Vrndavana were never created because that imperishable all living dominion has always existed in the mood of Krishna Consciousness beyond mundane material time, space and decay

Actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates; nothing is ever suspended there. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of ‘eternal moment in imperishable time’ of Goloka in relation to the ‘divided perishable time’ of the mahat-tattva - hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.

Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the ‘eternal present’, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada – “So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master; sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”. July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C

Vipina – “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?”

Srila Prabhupada – “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this”.

Vipina - “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?”

Srila Prabhupada – “That means you lose your independence”. July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. Full conversation: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/760708ed.wdc.htm

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 21st, 2010
20 varahanarasimha

Yes I know all these arguments and have never believe the soul came from Tatastha, I was one of the persons that also made sure temples did not allow the selling of ‘No leaves fall from Vaikuntha” and now in retrospect I am sad that this issue has driven some away from ISKCON and either Gaudiya math or their own vaisnava instituion ,so for general preaching:
“Get the heck out of the material world and chant Hare Krishna constantly”,how you come is not so important right now you are in samsara lets go on sankirtana Hari bol,yes and if some will accept these nice things you have mentioned from Srila Prabhupada even better, my point is lets not drive anyone away over this issue,or make enemies over it..it is not worth it

Comment posted by varahanarasimha on September 22nd, 2010
21 Gauragopala dasa

In understanding Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 Chapter 1 Text 35 Purport one has to first understand that Jaya and Vijaya caused an offence to Brahmanas cursed by the four Kumaras and as a result were given two choices to atone from their offence.

They could either take three births in the material world as Demons or they could take seven births as devotees. They chose to be in the material body as powerful demons.

They came from Vaikuntha under Krishna’s compassion meaning they were given the opportunity to engage in Krishna’s pastimes while in the material world as Demons, so when their offence was atoned they were immediately re-established in their eternal original svarupa or bodily position in Vaikuntha.

It must be understood they new they made a mistake by offending Brahmanas; at no point did they choose to give up Krishna as we have done, they were forced to give up Krishna in a devotional way by an offence to the four Kumaras but always remained Krishna Conscious even though that consciousness was based of the obsession to kill Krishna.

Now those who decide to remain associates of the Lord of course do not leave Goloka for the material mundane dreams and self centred importance they seek out in the mahat-tattva, that is, AS LONG AS THEY CHOOSE TO SERVE KRISHNA AND CAUSE NO OFFENSE however, there are those, less than 10% of Krishna’s jiva-tattva associates in Vaikuntha and Goloka, who DO choose to come to this material world and forget Krishna, they are only interested in their own exploits and want nothing to do with Krishna or His devotees.

Any jiva-tattva can leave Goloka for the material creation, but most choose not to make that mistake. The important point is THERE IS ALWAYS CHOICE.

In other parts of Srila Prabhupada’s writings, he calls Jaya and Vijay’s offence as a fall down, this is why in the purport of the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 Srila Prabhupada says “This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but

Narada Muni, being an authority, could answer it”.

Jaya and Vijaya did not turn away from the service of the Lord. Although they wrongly offended the Kumaras, they were the Lord’s unflinching attendants even when they made this mistake or offence.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 23rd, 2010
22 Gauragopala dasa

In Srimad-Bhagavatam, 7.1.34, King Yudhisthira inquires: “What kind of curse could affect even liberated Visnu-bhaktas? And what sort of person could curse even the Lord’s associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.”

Maharaj Yudhisthira is astounded that unflinching nitya-siddhas could be sent down into the material world. However, the point is that he is not referring to souls who have misused their free will and voluntarily went to the material creation (mahat-tattva).

As long as devotees in Vaikuntha remain unflinching servants of the Lord, they are never sent down into the material world, unless the Lord wants them to engage in a particular lila with Him..

Srila Prabhupada - “For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krishna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. So when I say ‘Yes, there is eternal lila with Krishna,’ that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya.” http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123

Srila Prabhupada compares the fall-down of the marginal living entity to the mahat-tattva to the narration of Jaya and Vijay and how they fell down from Vaikuntha. The fallen marginal living entity is similar to fallen Jaya and Vijaya but not the same because unlike us, they were sent by Krishna according to their choice of atonement for their offence to the four Kumaras, where as we chose to turn away from Krishna.

We preferred to selfishly imitate Krishna and by doing so, come willingly to the mahat-tattva to chase our own mistaken desires and forget Krishna, where as Jaya and Vijaya never gave up serving the Lord, they however offended His devotees and had to face the responsibility of that offence.

The difference between the two is that the Lord did not arranged our fall-down from Goloka, we did. We fell by misusing our-free will and not by the arrangement of Krishna. The unwavering devotees, who choose to remain a servant of the Lord in both Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha, mostly do not choose to fall into the clutches of selfish exploits in the mahat-tattva nevertheless, they can come to the material world due to some offence (as Jaya and Vijaya)

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 23rd, 2010
23 Gauragopala dasa

Devotee – “In the spiritual sky, when the living entity is in his pure state of consciousness, does something act upon him to make him illusioned?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. They committed offence. So we sometimes commit mistake. That is also misuse of independence. Or we are prone to fall down, because we are small”. - Room conversation in Los Angeles on June 23, 1975

Srila Prabhupada - “After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world, just like Jaya Vijaya. There is possibility. If you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down what to speak of this material world?” Bhagavad-gita 17.1-3 Lecture in Honolulu on 7-4-74

Srila Prabhupada - “Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, just like Jaya-Vijaya. Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, ‘Go back to home, back to Godhead” - Srimad-Bhagavatam 5-22-75 Lecture in Melbourne

Srila Prabhupada - “The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy, whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna’s marginal energy.” - Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968

Srila Prabhupada makes it clear in the fourth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and numerous lectures, letters and morning walks we originate from Goloka and that we can fall from there at any time if we do not keep ourselves fixed in Krishna Consciousness. However, on returning again to Goloka, most NEVER again fall to this decaying material creation.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 23rd, 2010
24 Gauragopala dasa

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence, I can’t seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we are in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature… ”.

Srila Prabhupada – “You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya. They were Krishna’s doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakesipu? So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krishna’s personal associates, the Doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse.

Pusta Krishna Swami – “ iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa: “O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Purport?”

Pusta Krishna Swami - “The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, Who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krishna appears by His internal potencies.

But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies.

This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonour and honour, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking ‘This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.’

These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 23rd, 2010
25 Gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada – “ So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada – “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada – “That means you lose your independence”.

Vipina Purandara – “And no love”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love?

So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?”

Vipina Purandara – “But isn’t it by force anyway? If we don’t love Krishna, we suffer”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That is your business. You’ll suffer. But that Krishna does not force you. He says the real, “You love me, you’ll be happy. If you don’t love, you suffer.” But that is your business”.

Vipina Purandara – “So, what is the choice? ”

Srila Prabhupada – “ Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don’t make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krishna says that, ‘You surrender to Me.’ You surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, “My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you’ll be happy.” If he does not do it, he’ll suffer. There is no other alternative”.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 23rd, 2010
26 Gauragopala dasa

Guest – “Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore, government has to construct a jailhouse. It is not government’s desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krishna, for them there is material world, “All right, you remain here.”

Vipina Purandara – “We also say that Krishna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krishna, why doesn’t He let us really enjoy independent of Him?”

Srila Prabhupada – “That is not possible. That is Maya; it is called (Maya). You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that’s all. You are not enjoyer”.

Vipina Purandara – “Then He’s not fulfilling the desire”.

Srila Prabhupada – “No, you wanted to enjoy–enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you’ll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool”.

Vipina Purandara – “Hmmm, enjoy at your risk”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Vipina Purandara – “Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Therefore He advises, “Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me. You’ll be happy.” But we don’t accept it. Therefore, sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your risk” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 23rd, 2010
27 Gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada explains that actually originally we are all nitya-siddha devotees

Srila Prabhupada – “Eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)? We cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), because we are part and parcel of Krishna. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated (nitya-siddha). But because we wanted to imitate Krishna, we wanted to become Krishna, as the Mayavadis want to do, therefore in the spiritual world, Krishna is the only enjoyer. (Bhagavad Gita as it is lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada - “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, by following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established however, when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

Therefore we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud obscurity which is the nitya-baddha consciousness. This cloud covering is now what we are only aware of, we no longer know or believe we are in Goloka because our factual ‘awareness’ of existence IS no-longer in Goloka.

We forget that our nitya-baddha consciousness, like the cloud blocking the sun, is blocking any awareness to our nitya-siddha svarupa in Goloka. Our eternal constitutional position as nitya siddha is no longer visible to our eye. Just like one forgets the sun due to the cloud cover, we completely forget our nitya-siddha body because of our nitya baddha covering.

We are not able to see the sun shinning (our nitya-siddha body) due to the cloud or nitya baddha materially absorbed consciousness blocking our vision of the sun. The sun is always there, it has not gone anywhere, similarly our nitya-siddha body is always there in Goloka and also has not gone nowhere however; we cannot realized this because of the cloud or nitya-baddha covering

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 23rd, 2010
28 Gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada - “As living spiritual souls, we are all originally Krishna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness is now polluted by the material atmosphere, called Maya, or illusion”. And what is this illusion? The illusion is that we are all trying to be lords of material nature, while actually we are under the grip of her stringent laws. When a servant artificially tries to imitate the all-powerful master, he is said to be in illusion. Hare Krishna Album 1966

When the Mayavadis say the world is an illusion, to them nothing is real because they have no concept that Krishna is the Supreme Creator and is forever enjoying His eternal pastimes within the eternal ‘presence’ of Goloka, the undeviating immortal Kingdom of God. The devotees of Krishna see that if one’s behaviour is not everlasting, then that must illusion, only because it does not include Krishna. Prabhupada constantly uses the word ‘illusion’ in his preaching to point this fact out, that which is illusion means it is temporary, decaying, fading, to the point that eventually it will appear as if it never was – that which is not - Maya.

Srila Prabhupada explains how the non-Krishna conscious rebellious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) are sub-consciously projected from one’s marginal identity in Goloka and transferred to the ‘creation of the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

This secondary reality or mahat-tattva (material creation) is set up for the secondary (condition) of the marginal living entities known as the nitya-baddha lower self of restricted awareness. Such mistaken desires are non-Krishna conscious thoughts, dreams and desires that are housed in material bodily forms in the mahat-tattva

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life (nitya-baddha), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long, long, long, long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period (nitya-baddha) is considered as a second”.http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123

Srila Prabhupada - “By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can again become nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, 76

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 27th, 2010
29 Gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma-Samhita describes – This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation”. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada - “Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”. Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction

Srila Prabhupada - “There is possibility (falling from Vaikuntha), if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down”. Bhag.-Gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

Srila Prabhupada tells us that we have never been always conditioned as nitya-baddha because we have come from Goloka, rather, it is only our ‘dreaming’ non Krishna consciousness that comes to the mahat-tattva and not our nitya-siddha body due to not being able to exist within the eternal presence of Krishna Consciousness there.

The nitya-baddha consciousness therefore finds a home in subtle and gross material bodily vessels in the mahat-tattva that are temporary, our nitya-baddha conscious condition is also only temporary because ultimately and perpetually, we are all nitya-siddha in Goloka

In this way, just as the sun dissipates the darkness, when one is AGAIN fully established as their nitya-siddha authentic eternal body, the darkness or the nitya-baddha counterfeit non-Krishna consciousness will simply not exist. This is because the nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity can never exist in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha in the presence of Krishna and ones nitya-siddha body, darkness cannot exist where there is light.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 27th, 2010
30 Gauragopala dasa

When a devotee regains his/hers original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes ‘the awareness’ of their svarupa in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, this does not mean that one is only restricted by a particular svarupa (body) for eternity. Ones eternal bodily form is not limited to any particular svarupa or nitya-siddha body they have there.

Also there are many examples of devotees participating in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one svarupa at the same time, therefore our eternal rasa can change in Goloka; even though our nitya siddha or rasa body is perpetually situated in Goloka as a two armed form in it’s originality as Srila Prabhupada confirms -

Yasomatinandana – “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975

So unlike the material bodies in the mahat-tattva that are temporary decaying vessels the life force (nitya-baddha consciousness) moves around in, we ARE our body (nitya-siddha) in Goloka though, that body can transform because our eternal svarupa is interchangeable.

For example, ones svarupa can change to a four-armed form in the Vaikuntha Planets or a different form in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in the top most platform in Goloka that He sometimes brings to the material world as pastimes, although very rare. In simple terms, one has the ability to ‘shape shift’ into any form to please Krsna Caitanya and can also be in many places in various forms at the same time.

Caitanya Caritamrita is full of such examples. Most are Vishnu tattva expansions although there are many jiva tattva’s like Naradha Muni as well. No jiva tattva in Lord Caitanya Lila is restricted only to their two-armed perpetual svarupa

Srivasa Thakura is known as Narada Muni, he also has his svarupa manifestation in Goloka. Therefore, by the elegance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he is also simultaneously situated in the top most regions of Goloka where his endless pastimes are going on. Further more, Srila Prabhupada has explained he enters the material world often disguised in different bodily vessels to preach Krishna Consciousness.

Who can understand the multidimensional full potential abilities of the liberated nitya-siddha souls?

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 30th, 2010
31 Gauragopala dasa

FINAL EDIT When a devotee regains his/hers original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes ‘the awareness’ of their svarupa in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, does not mean that one is only restricted by one particular svarupa (body) for eternity. Ones eternal body is not limited to any particular nitya-siddha body they have there.

Also there are examples of devotees participating in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one svarupa at the same time, therefore our eternal rasa can change in Goloka; even though our nitya siddha or rasa body is perpetually situated in Goloka as a two armed form in it’s originality as Srila Prabhupada confirms -

Yasomatinandana – “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975

So unlike the material bodies in the mahat-tattva that are temporary decaying vessels the nitya-baddha consciousness moves around in, we ARE our body (nitya-siddha) in Goloka though, that body can transform because our eternal svarupa is interchangeable.

For example, ones svarupa can change to a four-armed form in the Vaikuntha Planets or a different form in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in the top most platform in Goloka that He sometimes brings to the material world as pastimes, although very rare. In simple terms, one has the ability to ‘shape shift’ into any form to please Krsna Caitanya and can also be in many places in various forms at the same time.

Caitanya Caritamrita is full of such examples. Most are Vishnu tattva expansions although there are many jiva tattva’s like Naradha Muni as well. No jiva tattva in Lord Caitanya Lila is restricted only to their two-armed perpetual svarupa

Srivasa Thakura is known as Narada Muni, he also has his svarupa manifestation in Goloka. Therefore, by the elegance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Narada Muni is also simultaneously situated in the top most regions of Goloka where Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s endless pastimes are going on. Further more, Srila Prabhupada has explained that Narada Muni enters the material world often disguised in different bodily vessels to preach Krishna Consciousness.

Who can understand the multidimensional full potential abilities of the liberated nitya-siddha souls?

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 30th, 2010

Gauragopala Dasa: To say we DID NOT come from Vaikuntha is to say we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea


Damodara dasa on WKKX 1600 AM

nvcommunications: Last Tuesday, Damodara dasa from New Vrindaban was interviewed for one hour on Whispers Paranormal Radio. The show is broadcast live as well as recorded. It is syndicated worldwide on the UFO Paranormal Radio Network.


Philadelphia Ratha Yatra & Festival of India 2010

Philadelphia Ratha Yatra & Festival of India 2010


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Philadelphia Ratha Yatra & Festival of India 2010



Ramacharan Dasa: A Multicultural Family Festival
FREE VEGAN & VEGETARIAN FEAST

WEB: WWW.ParadeofChariots.COM
EMAIL: ParadeofChariots@GMAIL.COM

Date: September 25th, 2010 (11 AM - 7 PM)

Ratha Yatra Location: Love Park (at the intersection of 16th & Ben Franklin Parkway), Philadelphia PA

Festival of India Location:
Philadelphia Museum of Art, Eakins Oval,
2600 Ben Franklin Pkwy, Philadelphia, PA 19130

Festival Highlights:
FREE VEGAN & VEGETARIAN FEAST
Devotional Bhajans & Kirtan by HG Badahari Prabhu, HG Balabhadra Prabhu, HG Gauravani Prabhu and HG Visvambhar Prabhu
Yoga of Comedy HG Yadunatha Prabhu
Indian Classical Bharatnatyam Dance
Indian Classical Odissi Dance by Shibani Patnaik
Multi-Media Presentation - Movie - Changing Bodies / Journey of the Soul
Spiritual music for Children by Kaleidescope
Workshops in the workshop tents
Mantra meditation & Kirtan Yoga
Improvisational comedy
Interactional Bhagavad Gita
Inspirational Spiritual Discourse

The Parade of Chariots will begin at 12 noon near Love Park in Center City Philadelphia at 16th and Ben Franklin Parkway. It will proceed from there down the Ben Franklin Parkway to Eakin’s Oval in front of the Philadelphia Museum of Arts where the Festival of India will be held. Included in the parade will be a Large Garbha dance Ensemble, lila characters in costume, kirtan chanters and dancers, loving devotees pulling the huge chariot of Lord Jagannatha, Baladeva, Lady Subhadra and Srila Prabhupada.

The Festival of India will begin at 1 PM at Eakin’s Oval in front of the Philadelphia Art Museum. It will include a free vegan and vegetarian feast, devotional and contemporary musical performances, Indian classical dance performances, drama, booths recounting the philosophy of reincarnation, Bhagavad-Gita, Yoga, the Hare Krishna Movement, Indian clothing, Sumptuous Vegetarian Cuisine, cultural gifts, Children’s activities, and overall family fun. It will last until 7:00 pm.

Please join us for this event and become part of the huge procession accompanying the chariots providing music, tumultuous playing of drums, dancing and transcendental activities.

Temple Address:
41 W Allens Lane, Philadelphia PA 19119,
Phone- 215 247 xxxxxxxx

WWW.ISKCONPHILADELPHIA.COM

Thank you.

Ramacharan Dasa: The Parade of Chariots will begin at 12 noon near Love Park in Center City Philadelphia at 16th and Ben Franklin Parkway. It will proceed from there down the Ben Franklin Parkway to Eakin's Oval in front of the Philadelphia Museum of Arts where the Festival of India will be held


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