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miércoles, 8 de septiembre de 2010

Sadhus Sanga - (Escritos) www.sadhusanga.com

Sadhus

Sanga

----- Original Message -----

From: Bhakti Madhava Puri

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga

Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:50 PM

Subject: [SPAM]: [Sadhu Sanga] East meets West: Tagore and Einstein

This is an introductory essay to serve as a background for the discussion between Rabindranath Tagore and Albert Einstein that follows. Reading this first will help clarify the topic raised in the brief encounter between these two distinguished Nobel laureates.

Philosophical realism, or objectivism holds that reality exists independently of any intentional creature or consciousness. This is the generally accepted viewpoint of modern science regarding objectivity.

Consciousness is always consciousness of something, i.e. consciousness of an object. Some people therefore think that the objective world exists before consciousness in order for there to even be consciousness. But what can this objectivity of consciousness be that supersedes consciousness, or that consciousness itself does not contain?

This type of thinking turns out to be based on a false dichotomy. The objectivity of consciousness is the content of consciousness itself that has been posited (thought) as not posited, i.e. as given. It is difficult for reason to extract itself from this state of affairs because it involves a double negation. First consciousness negates itself by positing or posing its own determinate content as opposed to or other than itself. Then it negates the fact (or act) that it posited this otherness to begin with, thereby presupposing it to be given. To give a simple example: someone posses as a king in a play but gets so wrapped up in his character that he forgets he is only playing a role and actually thinks himself to be the king. He forgets both (1) that he took on the role of king, and (2) that the role is only a role and not an actual king.

This negative activity of posing, opposing and presupposing goes on behind the back of consciousness, in other words, unconsciously. Thus due to lack of knowledge such a consciousness does not know what it is doing. This is the unfortunate situation of material consciousness.

Knowledge of the world is based upon the human capacity for knowing and reason. This capacity is called consciousness. Without knowledge of the self (-consciousness), material knowledge is nescience or not-science that yet poses itself as science. This is the same problem as mentioned above. So we have to examine this carefully.

The Senses and the Mind

Data or so called facts of the world, are the products of the sensory experiences of human beings. Thus facts are actually never objectively existing things of a superhuman, unconscious world - i.e. of a sphere of superhuman reality from which human beings and their consciousness are assumed to have been created or evolved.

To claim that reality exists independently of human consciousness, (i.e. a belief in the existence of a superhuman reality) from which human consciousness is miraculously produced by "evolution" (a mysterious unarticulated mechanism involving long time spans and unspecified chains of random change) can only be faith-based by definition. First of all, because such a reality may contain within it that which has never been experienced (i.e., that which has never been manifested by evolution). And secondly, the assumption that things exist independently of observation can only be based on belief, even if a very logical one, rather than experience. In other words, when someone leaves his house to go to work, he assumes it continues to exist despite the fact he does not observe it. Such a reality is thus logically based, not an experientially observed one. We may call this an abstract logical reality rather than a phenomenological reality. In any case, the belief in the existence of a superhuman reality, and the belief in its persistence even without being experienced form the ground of what has come to be called modern material science.

In religious faith, the superhuman reality is called God. Such a reality is as much personal Subject as Substance. It is not merely impersonal substance as conceived by modern materialism. Persistence of existence is maintained by the supreme cognizant being or God. And manifestation of the world and everything in it arises from the intrinsic artistic creativity of the Supreme Godhead. The essential difference between the religious personal conception and modern science's impersonal conception of superhuman reality is the pivotal point that changes everything.

A closer examination of the material conception of reality.

Here we want to focus on the "persistence of the object" that we concluded forms the logical/rational basis of the materialistic conception of reality. We gave the example that when we go to work, we assume our house remains as it is while we are there, even though we don't experience it. We may give as reasons for this belief that the house may burn down when I am at work, or it is there when I come home, etc. The continued existence of one's house then relies, not on direct experience or observation, but on reason(s).

In other words, reason is the underlying thread that holds the world together for us, not experience. Experience only forms singular differentiated moments in the integral unity (of reason) that we refer to as reality or the existing world. This was also the conclusion of the ancient Greek philosopher, Anaxagoras who similarly claimed nous (reason) rules the world.

This means that philosophical realism, or objectivism, the viewpoint of modern material science, does not get away from a human centered, consciousness based world of reality. This is the basis of the philosophical critique of the materialist conception of reality. Another interesting insight into the problem of the persistence of the object comes from the cognitive studies of the French developmental psychologist, Jean Piaget.

Piaget studied the cognitive development of children through different stages starting with the most basic sensory-motor level. From this study he demonstrated that something as simple as object permanence, which adults consider as obvious, is actually a constructed reality. Although it is hard to tell exactly what a child is thinking, it appears that an object shown to a very young child seems to appear as a completely new object when taken away and then brought back into the child's perceptual field. In other words, the child does not at first conceive of the permanence of the object of experience. The conception of permanence is something that arises at a later stage of the child's development.

We can understand that two sense experiences are not compared at the level of the senses. There is no sense that detects "comparison." Comparison is a cognitive act at the mental level, so that "sameness" or "difference" is a concept and not a thing for sense perception. Likewise, "next to" is a concept. Thus when A and B are objects of perception, it is the mind that constructs the idea that A is next to B. This does not arise from the activity of the senses which only see, touch, taste, hear, and smell singular objects of the respective senses.This means that cognitive development is required in order to create a sense of how and what the world is.

For a one year old child there are a multitude of spaces, one each for the mouth, audio, visual, tactile, etc. These spaces are not coordinated. They do not exist as one homogenous encompassing space at first. Cognitive development is essential to form the concepts of space, time, causality and the permanent objects associated with them. We are just mentioning this here to emphasize the non sensuous cognitive role of consciousness in the structuring of reality. [For further information on this topic, see "The Construction of Reality for the Child" by Jean Piaget, Routledge and Kegan Paul (1954).]

Even for adults, it depends on their indigenous culture as to how space and time is conceived. Aboriginal people do not perceive time as an exclusively ‘linear’ category (i.e. past-present-future) and often place events in a ‘circular’ pattern of time according to which an individual is in the center of ‘time-circles’ and events are placed in time according to their relative importance for the individual and his or her respective community (i.e. the more important events are perceived as being ‘closer in time’). [Janca, A. and Bullen, C. (2003), The Aboriginal concept of time and its mental health implications. Australasian Psychiatry, 11: S40–S44. doi: 10.1046/j.1038-5282.2003.02009.x]

Space, time and causality are therefore constructed conceptions that mold the way we experience the world, and thus the world appears differently depending upon the conceptual or cognitive development of the individual, the totality of which we call consciousness. Consciousness is thus not the same for every individual, and consequently the world of which they are conscious is also different.

Now, one may say that there is still a non-personal objective world of reality that consciousness has to deal with, although each individual consciousness may comprehends it differently. But how can anyone come to know that superhuman reality without transforming it by one's experiences that are unified within a comprehending consciousness?

The superhuman reality that in itself transcends any and all human experience must remain unknowable by any human endeavor. Therefore, by what means can one come in contact with such a reality without distorting it into something that is merely for human consciousness (a phenomenal appearance), but never as it is in and for itself (as absolute reality). Therefore modern science must merely assume or believe in the existence of such a superhuman, unknowable and unknown reality. This means that science has its superhuman absolute, and must have its faith in it. Thus it has no basis on which to claim the unreasonableness of the similar claims of religion.

[Excepted from an article published in NewYork Times, August 10, 1930]

JULY 14, 1930 ON THE NATURE OF REALITY

[Rabindranath Tagore meets Albert Einstein's at his cottage in Caputh, Germany, near Potsdam.]

TAGORE: You have been busy, hunting down with mathematics, the two ancient entities, time and space, while I have been lecturing in this country on the eternal world of man, the universe of reality.

EINSTEIN: Do you believe in the divine isolated from the world?

TAGORE: Not isolated. The infinite personality of man comprehends the universe. There cannot be anything that cannot be subsumed by the human personality, and this proves that the truth of the universe is human truth.

EINSTEIN: There are two different conceptions about the nature of the universe - the world as a unity dependent on humanity, and the world as reality independent of the human factor.

TAGORE: When our universe is in harmony with man, the eternal, we know it as truth, we feel it as beauty.

EINSTEIN: This is a purely human conception of the universe.

TAGORE: ThE world is a human world - the scientific view of it is also that of the scientific man. Therefore, the world apart from us does not exist; it is a relative world, depending for its reality upon our consciousness. There is some standard of reason and enjoyment which gives it truth, the standard of the eternal man whose experiences are made possible through our experiences.

EINSTEIN: This is a realization of the human entity.

TAGORE: Yes, one eternal entity. We have to realize it through our emotions and activities. We realize the supreme man, who has no individuaL limitations, through our limitations.

Science is concerned with that which is not confined to individuals; it is the impersonal human world of truths. Religion realizes these truths and links them up with our deeper needs. Our individual consciousness of truth gains universal significance. Religion applies values to truth, and we know truth as good through own harmony with it. EINSTEIN Truth, then, or beauty, is not independent of man?

TAGORE: No, I do not say so.

EINSTEIN: If there were no human beings any more, the Apollo Belvedere no longer would be beautiful?

TAGORE: No!

EINSTEIN: I agree with this conception of beauty, but not with regard to truth.

TAGORE Why not? Truth is realized through men.

EINSTEIN I cannot prove my conception is right, but that is my religion.

TAGORE Beauty is in the ideal of perfect harmony, which is in the universal being; truth is the perfect comprehension of the universal mind. We individuals approach it through our own mistakes and blunders, through our accumulated experience, through our illumined consciousness. How otherwise can we know truth?

EINSTEIN: I cannot prove, but I believe in the Pythagorean argument, that the truth is independent of human beings. It is the problem of the logic of continuity.

TAGORE : Truth, which is one with the universal being, must be essentially human; otherwise, whatever we individuals realize as true, never can be called truth. At least, the truth which is described as scientific and which only can be reached through the process of logic - —in other words, by an organ of thought which is human. According to the Indian philosophy there is Brahman, the absolute truth, which cannot be conceived by the isolation of the individual mind or described by words, but can be realized only by merging the individual in its infinity. But such a truth cannot belong to science. The nature of truth which we are discussing is an appearance; that is to say, what appears to be true to the human mind, and therefore is human, and may be called maya, or illusion.

EINSTEIN: It is no illusion of the individual, but of the species.

TAGORE: The species also belongs to a unity, to humanity. Therefore the entire human mind realizes truth; the Indian and the European mind meet in a common realization.

***

EINSTEIN: The word species is used in German for all human beings; as a matter of fact, even the apes and the frogs would belong to it. The problem is whether truth is independent of our consciousness.

TAGORE: What we call truth lies in the rational harmony between the subjective and objective aspects of reality, both of which belong to the superpersonal man.

EINSTEIN: We do things with our mind, even in our everyday life, for which we are not responsible. The mind acknowledges realities outside of it, independent of it. For instance, nobody may be in this house, yet that table remains where it is.

TAGORE: Yes, it remains outside the individual mind, but not the universal mind. The table is that which is perceptible by some kind of consciousness we possess.

EINSTEIN: If nobody were in the house the table would exist all the same, but this is already illegitimate from your point of view, because we cannot explain what it means, that the table is there, independently of us. Our natural point of view in regard to the existence of truth apart from humanity cannot be explained or proved, but it is a belief which nobody can lack - —not even primitive beings. We attribute to truth a superhuman objectivity. It is indispensable for us - —this reality which is independent of our existence and our experience and our mind - though we cannot say what it means.

TAGORE: In any case, if there be any truth absolutely unrelated to humanity, then for us it is absolutely non-existing.

EINSTEIN: Then I am more religious than you are!

TAGORE: My religion is in the reconciliation of the superpersonal man, the universal spirit, in my own individual being.

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Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah

Dandavat pranams dear Sripad B.V. Avadhut Maharaja.

Your gracious encouragement and blessings for this insignificant soul are very humbly and gratefully appreciated. Your kind comment has inspired me to write something about the history behind this article, some of which you may already know but others may be unaware of.

In the early 70's Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was very urgently preaching to the handful of scientists that had become his disciples about the need to challenge and defeat the Darwinian conception of evolution, and the materialist idea that life was simply a by-product of mater. It is the nature of a pure soul to be completely honest because only such a purified being is transcendentally connected with unalloyed Truth. Thus he taught what everyone already knew to be the fact by everyday experience, viz. that life only comes from life, and matter comes from life; not that life comes from matter. This is so obvious that it was intolerable for him to see the intellectual leaders of society, especially the scientists, ignoring and perverting this most fundamental and simple point and defying both reason and experience. Not only that, but the people were becoming convinced by them because of their flowery and bombastic jargon and the technological wizardry that resulted from applying that knowledge.

But Srila Prabhupada, as he was affectionately known, firmly stood his ground and while he appreciated the "overly fertile brains" of the scientists and what they had accomplished, he separated that from the wrong conceptions they had advanced concerning life and the soul. Thus it was that he constantly and earnestly persuaded his scientist disciples, Srila Bhaktisvarupa Damodar Maharaja, Sripad Sadaputa das Adhikari, and myself to confront on their own territory and in their own terms those who were promoting the clearly wrong ideas.

In 1977 Srila Prabhupada entered samadhi or "changed worlds" and Srila Damodar Maharaja and I, due to Prabhupada's recommendation, met his Siksha Guru, Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhara Maharaja. He convincingly explained that it was subjective evolution of consciousness and not objective evolution of bodies that was the cause of varieties of species. His transcendentally realized conviction that "fossil fatherism," as he called it - the idea that the fossils gave evidence of our ancestors, was wrong and that we had been entrusted with the service of building a "tombstone over Darwin's grave." It was these words that came vividly alive when I saw the picture that you find in my article, and I decided that now was the time to write an article explaining the cutting edge conclusions that modern biological science had reached.

I did not think I would ever see the fruits of our efforts in my lifetime. I always remembered what Max Planck had said during his acceptance speech as Nobel Laureate in Physics for his discovery of the quantization of energy: that old scientists had to die out before the next generation grew up accepting the new principles of science. Yet with the advancement of modern biology in studying the intricacies of the cell, and the absence of sufficient evidence as well as an adequate explanation for the variety of species, scientists have been forced to conclude that biochemistry and the reductionist neo-Darwinian model are far too simplistic and incapable of describing the dynamic condition of living organisms.

One other point that is amazing, at least to me, is that without realizing it, I completed and posted this article on the date of my father's birth anniversary. He was a simple and good man, a carpenter by trade who had lost his family at a young age. As a consequence he did not receive a good education and had to work hard his entire life. He became self-educated whenever he could find the time. It was with no small amount of surprise for me when, a few years before his death, he handed me a few scraps of paper filled with his roughly written handwriting that he wanted me to edit and put into printable form. He told me that he felt it was his life's mission to tell others that Darwin was wrong and that God had created the world.

It is with great wonder that I record these things, and pray for the blessing of our guru-varga, and all the saints and vaisnavas. And my affectionate appreciation again to you, Maharaja, for being the catalyst to ignite this response. The transcendental, non-partisan and humble appreciation that the sar-grahi, essence seeking devotees experience in their hearts wherever they find the Krishna conception is the real gift the Lord gives to those who constantly render service to Him.

Humbly in service,

Bhakti Madhava Puri

P.S. For those who are wondering about the photo that appears on the tombstone pictured in my article., it is a photograph of three of the main participants at the 1959 Darwin Centennial conference held in Chicago to consolidate what became known as the modern synthesis of evolution. Seated are George L. Stebbins, George G. Simpson, and Theodosius Dobzhansky.

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----- Original Message -----

From: Bhakti Madhava Puri

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga

Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 3:45 AM

Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Darwinism Dead at 150

Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah

Dandavat pranams dear Sripad B.V. Avadhut Maharaja.

Humbly in service,

Bhakti Madhava Puri

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Download Newsletter
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----- Original Message -----

From: Bhakti Madhava Puri

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga

Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 3:42 PM

Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Little Fish Challenges Giant of Science

Article appearing in the Boston Globe, May 30, 2000

A Little Fish Challenges a Giant of Science

By Fred Heeren, Globe Correspondent

CHENGJIANG, China - The fish-like creature was hardly more than an inch long, but its discovery in the rocks of southern China was a big deal. The 530-million-year-old fossil, dubbed Haikouella, had the barest beginning of a spinal cord, making it the oldest animal ever found whose body shape resembled modern vertebrates.

In the Nature article announcing his latest findings, Jun-Yuan Chen and his colleagues reported dryly that the ancient fish "will add to the debate on the evolutionary transition from invertebrate to vertebrate.

But the new fossils have become nothing less than a challenge to the theory of evolution in the hands of Chen, a professor at the Nanjing Institute of Paleontology and Geology. Chen argued that the emergence of such a sophisticated creature at so early a date shows that modern life forms burst on the scene suddenly, rather than through any gradual process.

According to Chen, the conventional forces of evolution can't account for the speed, the breadth, and one-time nature of "the Cambrian explosion," a geologic moment more than 500 million years ago when virtually all the major animal groups first appear in the fossil record.

Rather than Charles Darwin's familiar notion of survival of the fittest, Chen said he believes scientists should focus on the possibility that a unique harmony between forms of life allowed complex organisms to emerge. If all we have to depend upon is chance and competition, the conventional forces of evolution, Chen said, "then complex, highly evolved life, such as the human, has no reason to appear."

The debate over Haikouella casts Western scientists in the unlikely role of defending themselves against charges of ideological blindness from scientists in Communist China. Chinese officials argue that the theory of evolution is so politically charged in the West that researchers are reluctant to admit shortcomings for fear of giving comfort to those who believe in a biblical creation.

"Evolution is facing an extremely harsh challenge," declared the Communist Party's Guang Ming Daily last December in describing the fossils in southern China. "In the beginning, Darwinian evolution was as scientific theory.... In fact, evolution eventually changed into a religion."

Taunts from the Communist Party wouldn't carry much sting, however, if some Western scientists weren't also concerned about weaknesses in so-called neo-Darwinism, the dominant view of evolution over the last 50 years.

"Neo-Darwinism is dead," said Eric Davidson, a geneticist and textbook writer at the California Institute of Technology. He joined a recent gathering of 60 scientists from around the world near Chengjiang, where Chen had found his first impressions of Haikouella five years ago.

But most Westerners at Chen's conference came to praise Darwin, not to bury him. The idea that neo-Darwinism is missing something fundamental about evolution is as scandalous to Americans as it is basic to the Chinese.

Despite their misgivings about Chen's "harmony" proposal - a mysterious mix of scientific caution, Chinese philosophy, and a decidedly non-Western lack of concern for Darwinian orthodoxy Western scientists have no choice but to go to China to learn about the emergence of animal body plans, including that of humans.

Virtually all of today's living phyla or major animal groups make their first impressions in the geologic period known as the Cambrian. And Chengjiang, in the southern province of Yunnan, contains the oldest and best preserved Cambrian fossils in the world. Jun-Yuan Chen has coauthored half of all the papers on the Chengjiang fauna.

Chen's discovery of the earliest creature with a primitive nervous system, called a chordate, is, for him, but one more piece in a puzzle that looks less and less like the conventional picture of evolution through natural selection.

For Western paleontologists, Haikouella looks like a breakthrough for understanding the origin of the human lineage. "It proves that the direct ancestor of mankind already existed in the time of the Cambrian explosion," said German paleontologist Michael Steiner.

"Sort of instinctively, I felt I should go and pay homage to this animal," said another scientist at the conference, Nicholas Holland, an authority on primitive chordates at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in San Diego. "It's the earliest known chordate ancestor. This is going to be page one, two, three and four of vertebrate texts."

Chen enjoys seeing his fossils get the attention. But to him, the big story is not that he has discovered our earliest traceable ancestor but that the Cambrian explosion of new body plans is proving to be real, not an illusion produced by an incomplete fossil record.

Because new animal groups did not continue to appear after the Cambrian explosion 530 million years ago, he believes that a unique kind of evolution was going on in Cambrian seas. And, because his years of examining rocks from before the Cambrian period has not turned up viable ancestors for the Cambrian animal groups, he concludes that their evolution must have happened quickly, within a mere 2 or 3 million years.

According to Chen, the two main forces of evolution espoused by neo-Darwinism, natural selection ("survival of the littest") and random genetic mutation, cannot account for the sudden emergence of so many new genetic forms.

"Harmony can be a driving force [of evolution], too," Chen proposed at the Chengjiang conference.

As if to underscore the abruptness of Haikouella's place in the million years old. Darwin wrote that, if his theory is true, then the world must have been swarming with the ancestors of the Cambrian critters during long ages before them. He expected future generations to find them.

Today, paleontologists still.lack viable ancestors for the Cambrian's 40 or more animal phyla. Most researchers explain this by assuming that Precambrian animals were simply too small or too soft to leave a fossil record, or that conditions were unfavorable to fossilization.

But, for the last three years, Chen's discoveries at Precambrian fossil sites with Taiwanese biologist Chia-Wei Li have magnified this mystery. While sifting though the debris of a phosphate mining site, Chen and Li eventually discovered the earliest clear fossils of multicellular animals. They found sponges and tiny sponge embryos by the thousands but nothing resembling the fish-like Haikouella or forerunners of other Cambrian creatures, such as trilobites.

When word of the discovery got out, Chen and Li suddenly found themselves in the international spotlight. But when the hoopla was over and their discovery established, they wondered what evolutionary problems they had actually solved.

In fact, the pair had failed to find any recognizable body plans showing steps along the way toward the complex Cambrian animais, with their legs, antennae, eyes and other features.

What they had actually proved was that phosphate is fully capable of preserving whatever animals may have lived there in Precambrian times. Because they found sponges and sponge embryos in abundance, researchers are no longer so confident that Precambrian animals were too soft or too small to be preserved.

"I think this is a major mystery in paleontology," Chen said. "Before the Cambrian, we should see a number of steps - differentiation of cells, differentiation of tissue, of dorsal and ventral, right and left But we don't have strong evidence for any of these."

Taiwanese biologist Li was also direct: "No evolution theory can explain these kinds of phenomena."

In Chen's view, his evidence supports a history of life that runs opposite to the standard evolutionary tree diagrams, a progression he calls top-down evolution.

In the most published diagram in the history of evolutionary biology, Darwin illustrated what became the standard view of how new taxa, or animal categories, evolve. Beginning with small variations, evolving animals diverge farther from the original ancestor, eventually becoming new species, then new genera, new families, and the divergence continues until the highest taxa are reached, which are separated from one another by the greatest differences.

But the fossil record shows that story is not true, according to Chen. The differences appear dramatically in the early days, instead of coming at the top. Chen suggested that biologists need to seek new mechanisms to explain these evolutionary leaps.

Wherever the first chordates came from, Nicholas Holland of Scripps agreed that science should now take seriously the possibility that evolution can occur in relatively quick jumps.

That still leaves a great divide between Chen, Li and the Chinese media on one side and the mainstream Western view, in which scientists are reluctant to admit that the Cambrian explosion poses a difficult challenge.

But conferences such as the one in Chengjiang may be changing some views. One of the symposium organizers, paleontologist David Bottjer of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, said he disagrees with the idea of rapid evolution, but he conceded, "The Cambrian Explosion is going to tell us something different about evolution, in the sense that it's not the same story that we have always been taught."

----- Original Message -----

From: Bhakti Madhava Puri

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga

Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:15 PM

Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Worldwide rejection of Darwinism

Scientists around the world are endeavoring to cast off the hegemony that Darwinism has held over biology for a century and a half. What Daniel Dennet called "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" has turned out to be exactly that - it has stultified biological science's efforts to understand what the fundamental principles of life really are.

PRESS RELEASE

Wednesday, October 11th 2006 was an historic day in the life of the European Parliament.

Polish member of the European Parliament, Maciej Giertych, retired head of the Genetics Department of the Polish Academy of Science, and father of Polish Deputy Prime Minister, Roman Giertych, introduced a public seminar on the General Theory of Evolution to fellow MEP’s.

Professor Giertych questioned the value of teaching a continually falsified hypothesis – macroevolution – to students throughout Europe, as well as pointing out its lack of usefulness in regard to scientific endeavour.

Professor Giertych introduced the subject by relating how his children had returned home from school having been taught about the theory of evolution. They were told that the proof of macroevolution – the common ancestry of biological life – was to be found in the science of genetics. This was news to Professor Giertych who had spent his life working at the highest level of genetic research. He revealed to the meeting that such proof does not exist in genetics, only disproof.

This was reinforced by the speech of Professor Emeritus Joseph Mastropaolo who had travelled from the USA to participate in the Brussels hearing. He explained that the biological sciences offer no empirical proof of macroevolution, just insurmountable problems. The theory of evolution consists merely of interpretational evidences which by their very nature could be interpreted in many different ways. He told the audience that the theory, after more than 150 years, still lacked any empirical proof.

Dr. Hans Zillmer, a German Palaeontologist and member of the New York Academy of Sciences, told the meeting that the fossil record holds no proof for evolution theory either. Instead of showing gradual change from one species to another, as is often claimed in the classroom, it actually reveals the stasis and stability of life forms.

Finally, Dr. Guy Berthault spoke to the audience about the results of his empirical research programmes concerning the deposition of sediments. Contrary to the established idea that the geologic column was formed slowly over millions of years, horizontal layer by layer, he revealed that his ongoing research proves empirically that the whole column could have been laid down in a matter of months. His research, which has been published in journals of the National Academy of Sciences in France, Russia and China, shows that continuous deposition of water borne sediments sort themselves mechanically and a simple change in current velocity cause strata to build upon each other whilst still progressing in the direction of flow.

In opposition to the existing notion of sediment deposition that is generally taught, Dr. Berthault revealed that his empirical experimental results clearly show that parts of undisturbed lower strata are actually younger than parts of higher strata laid down in a continuous flow.

This means that fossils can not be dated by the strata that they are found in, nor the rocks dated by the type of fossils found in them and makes nonsense of the geologic column as it is currently taught.

Amongst those helping to organise the historic seminar were Dr. Dominique Tassot, Director of Centre d’Etude et de Prospectives sur la Science (C.E.P). C.E.P. is an organisation consisting of 700 French speaking scientists, intellectuals and representatives of other professions, all of whom oppose evolutionary theory on scientific grounds.

Information on the revolutionary research conducted by Dr. G. Berthaulthttp://www.sedimentology.fr/
From his website: (See especially the videos section for fundamental experiments that show sedimentation layers forming in the laboratory.) A new approach : paleohydraulic analysis by Guy Berthault
When I started my experiments on strata formation I was surprised to find how little work had been done on the subject in the past. Of course, sediments had been examined and flume experiments performed in connection with building and other projects, but none with the object of explaining the mechanics of stratification. I searched the data banks but found little to help with my research. I began to realise that the basic principles of superposition, continuity and initial horizontality laid down in the seventeenth had been accepted, albeit with development, virtually without question. There seemed to have been little attempt to examine the actual mechanics involved. Yet a few simple experiments, first with laminae and later with strata revealed that the time needed for micro or macro strata form was of quite a different order to that generally accepted. The implications were far-reaching both as concerns the geological time-scale and the fossil record. It was not until 1999 that there seemed to be an awakening to the idea that geological ages are measured by the time taken for sediments to deposit and not by biological revolutions or orogeny.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bhakti Madhava Puri

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga

Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 12:30 AM

Subject: Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Little Fish Challenges Giant of Science

From: Arunan:

Dear Bhakti Madhava Puri,

Thank you for this mail. I am pleased to note that you have been highlighting the challenges posed by the evolutionary biologists like Richard Lewontin among others to the mainstream ultra-Darwinists led by Richard Dawkins. This debate which started in the 1970s between the two groups among the Darwin's followers has been very acrimonious at times.
Though people like Stephen Jay Gould has been consistent in their elucidation of Darwin's theory, critiquing the ultra darwinists while not repudiating evolution nor Darwin's essential theory of evolution.

I gather from your mail that the the chinese scientists are following the same line. Therefore it is not correct to write off Darwin because of the ultra-Darwinist's adaptationist paradigm of evolution. This has been the theme of many great scientists from the 1970s who call themselves as Dialectical Biologists. Some of us, in fact have been teaching evolution by highlighting this debate more than the text book evolution, though syllabus scarcely refer to this!

With warm regards,
Arunan

Reply:

Dear Dr Arunan,

Thank you for your kind reply. It is a fact that biologists are rejecting Darwinism and not evolution as the articles we have posted explain. Many become very emotional when they think that evolution is being challenged. Darwinsim has become so tied up with the concept of evolution that the defeat of Darwinism is considered a defeat of evolution.

What is being recognized is that the mechanical nature of the Darwinian understanding of biology is not coherent with the dynamical (or dialectical) nature of the living organism as observed by working scientists. This is not a result of theory but of actual hard empirical observation and data. Darwin simply did not have the kind of information that exists today to make any detailed claims about organisms as we are now beginning to understand them. It is only to be expected that such idealizations will not be realized in the actual world.

This is a fundamental problem in science. The construction of models and their correspondence with reality is an inherently problematic methodology. The human mind is very limited or finite, How much can we expect to know? Th is question has to be carefully addressed. For this reason humility in science is a premium. Unfortunately it is in short supply these days.

The attitude of scientists to dismiss all spiritual considerations when examining Nature is really no more that a thinly veiled arrogance. If we consider the material to be what we can know and measure, and the spiritual to be that part of Reality that is not subject to our objectification and measurement, then only can we have a genuine understanding of our existential position.

Does it require so much humility to accept that we are not and can never be the supreme knowers of the universe., or is that the mentality of any normal, sane, and rational human being. It is normal to live in the knowledge that the circle of knowledge that we may have is inscribed by a circumference of darkness of the unknown, that is of unknown proportions. .And if, that which is unknown and unknowable is preponderant beyond compare, it must certainly is determine and control the sphere of finite or so-called knowledge. The reason is it "so-called" is because it can only be apparent or incomplete knowledge, for the unknown lies not only outside but also within everything.

This is our position. One may like to think that nothing is superior to oneself. But this is certainly mere egotism. Our honest position is that we are finite beings trying to maintain our existence, know our real purpose in life, and to find fulfillment. The spiritual philosophy of the Vedas, and all authentic religions teach us to acknowledge both the finite and infinite worlds that constitute reality. It is really a matter of humility and sanity. This is the beginning.

We already have a relationship with the finite reality. What is missing for many is their relation with the infinite that is above and beyond them. This kind of scientific knowledge will be complete real knowledge. And that is the message that we are trying to deliver through this group.

So far as evolution is concerned, it is still not a scientifically validated ideology that has ever been observed. Scientists continue trying to impose that idea on Nature rather than observing Nature and letting her present her evidence to us. We don’t observe evolution. Dogs come from dogs, humans from humans, etc. To try to fit Nature into some Procrustean bed made by the finite brains of scientists, is not science and will not lead to any progress in science. Darwinism has been refuted after 150 years, and now we should not have to wait another 150 years before “dialectical evolution” is rejected. We only have to open our eyes and humbly see what Nature shows us every day of our lives for generations of men. To go back into "deep time" is to go back into deep dreams that ultimately lead nowhere, as all dreams do. Now at this juncture of scientific revolution, it would be a good time to stop wasting time and daydreaming and go in the direction of some real science. This is my humble opinion.

Sincerely yours,

Bhakti Madhava Puri

----- Original Message -----

From: Bhakti Madhava Puri

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga

Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 6:52 PM

Subject: [SPAM]: [Sadhu Sanga] Digest Dec 3 - 4, 2010

Digest Dec 3 - 4, 2010

Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Little Fish Challenges Giant of ScienceVidyardhi Nanduri

2100 Million Years-Adi Maha Yuga-Cuddapah,South India
I have a photograpgh- Dolerite Rocks- a script in Telugu describes above.
I included in my books-
Cosmology Vedas Interlinks-Knowledge Expansion-TXU1571302
Regards
Vidyardhi Nanduri
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Digest Dec 1 - 2, 2010Avadhut Maharaja

Puri Maharaja;

Dandavat Pranams. Jai Shree Guru and Gouranga.

I am here in Houston as I may have intimated in my last response, but anyway
you have shown your power of complete dedication to the order of Shree Guru and I
would pray that a particle of that fervor fall on my head.

In that regard I place myself at your full service and humbly ask that you
engage me in any way you like although my personal qualifications are certainly very
minuscule.

Your servant,

Avadoot Swami [initiated as Upananda Das by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami in 1970]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E: [Sadhu Sanga] Little Fish Challenges Giant of ScienceBESz

All Glories To Srila Prabhupada, Sri Lord Caitanya and Sri Lord KRSNA. Haribol!!!

In regard to the notion of evolution, what information is there relating to the soul, reincarnation and EXTINCTION?

The SOUL is Eternal, the body perishes once the life-giving Soul leaves the body. Why and How does extinction of a certain species of animal relate to this notion of Karmic forces as we know it from Vedic liiterature?

All Mercy to you,

Bhakta Brett
Australia

Reply:

Regarding extinctions we can onlyu say that at different times there are numerous pralayas or periodical destructions of the material creation in various proportions mentioned in the scriptures. There is a well known theory in geology callled catasptrophism that describes these events. But the scriptures go on to explain that the jiva souls of the living entities that are destroyed during these partial devastations rest in the maha tattva or total material energy until the next manifestation takes place.

Mundane science does not accept the explanations of scritpure, but that does not invalidate them. Modern Western science has not yet progressed to the point where they know how to deal with what they consider to be the non-objective spiritual reality. A diferent mode of realization is required in the infinite advay jnanaregion beyond finite or material knowledge for which a distinction still exists between knowing and its object.

B.M. Puri

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: [Sadhu Sanga] Digest Dec 1 - 2, 2010
desaiha
I think the trigunas that you refere to in "the different forms of life are created by the trigunas, the subtle material principles that create the material world" should be considered pre-evolution i.e. cosmic material on earth that pre-dates evolution. It is out of this material that most primitive form of life evolved, in which undeveloped souls from earlier manvantar resided. Then as souls are burning away their bad karmas they need better body that is what is evolved as per Darwin Theory of evolution or other similar scientific theories and their localized variations as per need of souls based on their karma from earlier or current manvantar. So there is no contradiction between scientific and dharma principals, each look at issue from different perspective.

It is effort by some people, who do not understand dharma but are highly chauvinistic, close minded and anti-science that these confusion arises. In addition to Veda and Upanisheds, if one also reads Puranas, Jatakas and other later materials that he will get a better understanding of universe. Divine energy also resides in many individuals as well as non-human creatures and also in Images (Idols) of deities, the ideas that these chauvinistic anti-science dogmatists are opposed to.

Harry Desai

Reply:

I think the need for invective, ad hominem, etc. is a sign of a lack of substantial scientific understanding when discussing a topic. The triguna in Samkhya philosophy makes no reference to a Darwinian type of evolution of a manifested species during its lifetime, as you seem to imply. Indeed there is reincarrnation from one sepcies to another, but such reincarnation does not occur in one lifetime, but between lifetimes., barring special circumstances. This is explained in Bhagavad-gita 8.6, yam yam vapi smaram bhavam tyajanty ante kalevaram. This ante kalevaram means at the end of this body or death. We do not have to unnecessarily confuse scripture to appease current popluar sentiments in modern science. As we have continually maintained, evolutoin is not observed. Therefore we have no reason or need to promote such an ideology.

The origin of species is not understood.by science. Creation is still the best explaination that has ever been given. There is nothing anti-scientific about what every honest person will admit. Those who carry an atheistic or materialistic ideological prejudice will have trouble with that truth. They will have to adjust accordingly. But there is no value in presenting an imaginary process oif evolution to make them "intellectully satisfied" when the more realistic section of human beings have no problem with the spiritual dimention of reality existing harmoniously with the scientific dimension as well.

B. M. Puri

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Worldwide rejection of Darwinism
muralidhar-das

Even if it could be proven by science that some Creator made this universe,
in the opinion of Ramanuja this is useless knowledge as it is also possible
that there are other universes created by other Creators.

Muralidhar das

Reply:

Not only possible, but the discovery of the Brahma samhita by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in the 16th Century, and the many worlds concept put forward by Hugh Everett and others in quantum theory and modern astrophysics do lead us to believe that such a possiblitity is an actual reality. But as the Brahma samhita 5.1 tells us, an isvara parama or supreme creator also exists among the many creators or Brahmas: isvara parma krsna. sat cit ananda vigraha. anadir adi govindam.sarva karana karanam. "The Supreme Lord Krishna, the eternally cognizant embodiment of ecstacy is Govinda, the beginningless original cause of all causes."

B. M. Puri

----- Original Message -----

From: Bhakti Madhava Puri

To: Online_Sadhu_Sanga

Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:56 PM

Subject: [Sadhu Sanga] Digest Dec 5 - 7, 2010

Sadhu sanga Digest for Dec 5 - 7, 2010

We would like to thank you all for your participation and your sincere replies and comments on this important subject of our times.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Little Fish Challenges Giant of ScienceVivek
Dear Maharaja,

Thanks for your reply.

I think while, Darwinian paradigm is not the complete picture, and scientists need to be humble before putting material in. But if religious people insist that earth is flat or sun is closer to the earth than moon based on revelation and push material, which is contrary to hard evidence and insist that it is true, it makes it hard for thoughtful humble people. Or creationists insist that earth is 6000 years old and ignore any evidence because they have the word of God with them. So a person will see western revelation (bible) and the eastern revelation (vedas) and find difficulties with accepting religious fanatics insisting on the truth of either one. Yes, the premise that revelation is the only comprehensive way of knowing is correct, but if sometimes things like 6000 year old earth or flat earth theory contradict hard evidence on the ground that our senses are defective but these facts are true, I don't know whether we will get anywhere.. I feel religious people have been guilty of fanaticm too, which has led to the current situation.

Regards
Gaura-Vijaya

Reply:

We have to be careful about what is meant by revelation. This is not about merely reading a book and interpreting it as we like. Revelation comes through a scientific revelatory process or mediation. Otherwise simply "reading" the book of Nature or the book of scripture can lead to similar misunderstandings.

Einstein said it nicely: Science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind. Science accepts what is given to the senses through observation as facts. Religion accepts what is given in the scripture as facts. The only idfference is that science locates the determiner of truth within the individual, religion locates it within God. Note that there is a difference between fact and truth.

Truth is a result, something that is mediated or arrived at. Facts are what is immediate or simply given. In other words, truth requires that a coherence is established between concept and its content. This is a complex subject. But the main point at this juncture is that there is a sceintific process of arriving at truth through revelation that must be understood and followed.

BMPuri

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Worldwide rejection of DarwinismDr.Bisht
Dear Sir ,

its really an eye opener for all the biologists , i am of the opnion that
non living things can nott transform themselves to living ones only living
things can be transformed to nonliving components.

with best regards to Bhakti Madhava Puri maharaj
satpal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Worldwide rejection of DarwinismBV Nemi

Dear Bhakti Madhava Puri Maharaja,

Please accept my dandavat pranams. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Great information. Thank you so much for sending it. I really liked your recent article as well. You are keeping abreast of modern developments.

Aspiring for service to Sri Hari, Guru and Vaishnavas,
B V Nemi

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Little Fish Challenges Giant of Science
Dear All

I would like to tell you of Harun Yahua from ¨Turkey, whom has written the book atlas of evolution. which according to him proves 99% that darwin was wrong.

I know that he has send the atlas to most universities around the world.

yours sincerly
Lone Klemmensen. URI Denmark

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it the Death of Big bang Theory?Brajgopal das
Hello Everyone I find this article "World existed before Big Bang by
Professor Roger Penrose" in one of the famous Newspaper. Just sharing with
all of you.*
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1334027/Universe-shows-imprints-events-took-place-BEFORE-Big-Bang-say-scientists.html#ixzz17Ki6O9n4

Best Regards,
Bharath Radhekrishna.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Worldwide rejection of Darwinismkstailey

Do more research on Love my friends; it is much more valuable than arguing about maya.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darwinisim is realkstailey

Everything is Real.

Nothing is Forbidden.

<< Wednesday, 17 March 2010 ... Andrew Cleland of the University of California, Santa Barbara.

"We know perfectly well that things are not in two places at the same time in our everyday experience, but this fundamental theory of physics says that they can be," he told BBC News. >>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8570836.stm

We know perfectly well that things are not in two contradictory states such as "Darwinisim is real" and "Darwinisim is false" but both are true.

Reply:

Your first and second posts seem a bit contradictory. But I suppose in your philosophy whatever you say, whether it is true or not, or whether it is contradictory or not, or whether you have dinner or not, it is all the same. Good luck to that.

BM Puri

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Digest Dec 3 - 4, 2010muralidhar-das

Following Ramanuja, Sri Chaitanyadeva and Srila Sridhar Maharaj, I deeply
believe someone may experience a revelation of God internally, or when
someone is guided to find God by some Godly person. But at the same time I
don't believe you can prove the existence of God to anyone. Not through
logic. Not through physical evidence, scripture or debate. Certainly not
through science.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said, "A part cannot understand the Whole. It is only
possible when the Whole wants to make Himself known to the part."

That is, if God chooses to reveal himself to someone then the receiver will
understand what they are receiving internally; but if no revelation has come
to a person then they will never be able to understand God.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Digest Dec 3 - 4, 2010
deeksha agrawal

Thank u so much giving me such type if information

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Digest Dec 3 - 4, 2010
ajay singh

Dandavat Pranams. Hare krishna,

Some European scientists reported that the creation and capture of anti-hydrogen atoms in a novel magnetic trap and said it put them on track to solving one of the great cosmic mysteries-- the make up of anti matter.
Anti matter is of intense interest outside the global scientific community as it has often been cited as a potential source of boundless and almost cost free energy.

They said that they had briefly made and caught the elusive atoms for the first time.With these alternative methods of producing and eventually studying anti-hydrogen, anti-matter will not be able to hide its properties from us for much longer.

Anti, or neutral, matter is believed to have been created in the same quantities as conventional matter-- the substance of everything visible inthe universe -- at the movement of the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago.

Yours Faithfully,

AJAY KUMAR SINGH
New Delhi

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Imperfect Senses, imperfect Science.
BESz

- All glory to Sri GURU and Gauranga!

The issues of the Dinosaurs and Evolution will never dissolve because one man's theory is now outdated. What theory outdated it and why did we believe for so long that these false ideas were true? The simple answer is the imperfection of the sense instruments our Soul's have at their disposal to decipher the Maya around them. The agony of Birth deletes most known knowledge that has become attached to the Soul during past lives. From Birth we reach Disease, Old Age and then finally Death. The Soul continues no matter what life forms exist here on Earth, be them Dinosaur or Human.

I think KRSNA incarnated with the Dinosaurs as a big Fish or Pig? That was the dominant form of that Yuga and in this one we have the Humans to thank for Destruction, before the re-Creation.

Thank you for allowing a humble soul as my own to ask you some questions, and provide service to he Lord by talking with you about KRSNA - HARIBOL!

Bhakta Brett

Australia, New South Wales,

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Sadhu Sanga] Darwinsm Dead at 150
vikraman

Dear Sir/Madam,

Though Descrates and those who followed him
separated the observer from the observed, it has been nearly a century
since Physical Scientists have realized how the observer can actually
transform the observed. Note that the observer is very important in
the theory of relativity and also the role of the observer is very
important in understanding the uncertainty principle of quantum
mechanics.

Also one can believe in god and also agree with the theory
of evolution (provided it is correct). Usually many challenges are
thrown at scientific theories. It may be premature to bury evolution
completely.

Regards

--
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