Date: February 23rd, 2010 Verse: Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.33.1&2 Speaker: HH Danavir Goswami

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maitreya uvaca evam nisamya kapilasya vaco janitri sa kardamasya dayita kila devahutih visrasta-moha-patala tam abhipranamya tustava tattva-visayankita-siddhi-bhumim

TRANSLATION: Sri Maitreya said: Thus Devahuti, the mother of Lord Kapila and wife of Kardama Muni, became freed from all ignorance concerning devotional service and transcendental knowledge. She offered her obeisances unto the Lord, the author of the basic principles of the Sankhya system of philosophy, which is the background of liberation, and she satisfied Him with the following verses of prayer.

PURPORT: The system of philosophy enunciated by Lord Kapila before His mother is the background for situation on the spiritual platform. The specific significance of this system of philosophy is stated herein as siddhi-bhumim — it is the background of salvation. People who are suffering in this material world because they are conditioned by the material energy can easily get freedom from the clutches of matter by understanding the Sankhya philosophy enunciated by Lord Kapila. By this system of philosophy, one can immediately become free, even though one is situated in this material world. That stage is called jivan-mukti. This means that one is liberated even though one stays with his material body. That happened for Devahuti, the mother of Lord Kapila, and she therefore satisfied the Lord by offering her prayers. Anyone who understands the basic principle of Sankhya philosophy is elevated in devotional service and becomes fully Krsna conscious, or liberated, even within this material world. [End of Srila Prabhupada’s purport.]

devahutir uvaca athapy ajo ‘ntah-salile sayanam bhutendriyarthatma-mayam vapus te guna-pravaham sad-asesa-bijam dadhyau svayam yaj-jatharabja-jatah

TRANSLATION: Devahuti said: Brahma is said to be unborn because he takes birth from the lotus flower, which grows from Your abdomen while You lie in the ocean at the bottom of the universe. But even Brahma simply meditated upon You, whose body is the source of unlimited universes.

PURPORT: Brahma is also named Aja, “he who is unborn.” Whenever we think of someone’s birth, there must be a material father and mother, for thus one is born. But Brahma, being the first living creature within this universe, was born directly from the body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is known as Garbhodakasayi Visnu, the Visnu form lying down in the ocean at the bottom of the universe. Devahuti wanted to impress upon the Lord that when Brahma wants to see Him, he has to meditate upon Him. “You are the seed of all creation,” she said. “Although Brahma was directly born from You, he still has to perform many years of meditation, and even then he cannot see You directly, face to face. Your body is lying within the vast water at the bottom of the universe, and thus You are known as Garbhodakasayi Visnu.”

The nature of the Lord’s gigantic body is also explained in this verse. That body is transcendental untouched by matter. Since the material manifestation has come from His body, His body therefore existed before the material creation. The conclusion is that the transcendental body of Visnu is not made of material elements. The body of Visnu is the source of all other living entities, as well as the material nature, which is also supposed to be the energy of that Supreme Personality of Godhead. Devahuti said, “You are the background of the material manifestation and all created energy; therefore Your delivering me from the clutches of maya by explaining the system of Sankhya philosophy is not so astonishing. But Your being born from my abdomen is certainly wonderful because although You are the source of all creation, You have so kindly taken birth as my child. That is most wonderful. Your body is the source of all the universe, and still You put Your body within the abdomen of a common woman like me. To me, that is most astonishing.” [End of Srila Prabhupada’s purport.]

HH Danavir Swami: So that is evidently paraphrasing by Srila Prabhupada and the acaryas of what Devahuti is saying to her beloved son. He is an incarnation of the Lord so it is not improper for Him to be address as Garbhodakasayi Visnu. It might be considered out of rasa but after all she is the mother and she is astounded adbhuta. That is astonishing. It is astonishing that although You are the same Lord who is the source of the universe, who is the source of all the living entities, the source of Brahama, Brahma who took birth from Your abdomen, from the lotus coming from Your Abdomen. Now You have put Yourself in the womb of a common woman like me. This is astonishing. She is making that connection.

Whatever we see in Bhagavatam is to be taken authoritative - the topmost of all authorities, scriptures. There are many Puranas and there are many Upanisads, different branches of Vedic literature but out of all of them amala puranam, Srimad Bhagavatam is to be considered the top authority and even if there might appear to be some contradictions between different scriptures the Bhagavatam’s version is to be taken as the most authoritative.

So it says that she knows everything about the Lord already but it appears that by hearing the Sankhya philosophy as given by Lord Kapiladev, that is knowledge, which is imbued with bhakti, with devotional service. There maybe jnana. One may study, vedesu durlabham adurlabham atma-bhaktau. [Bs 5.33] One may study the Vedas for many lifetimes but unless there is bhakti then they will not get liberation. They will not get out of this material world. At least they will not attain the perfect stage of going back to home, back to Godhead.

Sankhya then as presented by Lord Kapila includes the proper understanding of bhakti yoga. In Bhagavad-gita Krishna uses the term sankhya quite a bit as meaning the philosophical understanding. Sankhya also means to count. So generally this material world can be broken down into twenty-four elements, five senses, working senses, knowledge acquiring senses, five material elements - earth, water, fire, air and ether. Then the sense objects, sound, touch, taste and then mind intelligence and false ego, the time element - twenty-four material elements. We can’t exactly say that time is material because in one sense Krishna is time but acting in that capacity. Beyond the twenty-four material elements Lord Kapiladev explains that there are two more elements, namely the jiva - the living entity and the Paramatma or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Those two elements - the non-material elements are very important because it is the principle of the sankhya system to help the living entity get free from the entanglement of the twenty-four material elements and that can be done by engaging in devotional service. Sankhya philosophy means devotional service.

There is another sankhya philosophy presented by an imposter, another Kapila - the atheist Kapila which only deals with the twenty-four material elements and doesn’t deal with the soul and the Supreme Soul. Therefore it is very much liked by the modern scientists. They appreciate that because their philosophy is pretty much the same. They have their elements chart - hundred elements out of so many and they break down material energy into those. And they say that there is nothing beyond this. It is a principle of materialistic science that they cannot accept anything supernatural, nothing that cannot be perceived by the senses. Of course that eliminates the soul and the Supreme soul because they are not perceivable by the material elements or by the material senses.

atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah [Cc. Madhya 17.136]

Therefore they cannot understand the Absolute Truth through the material senses or by mixing the material elements. They are always mixing trying to see if they can come up with something wonderful. They split the atom and they come up with explosions but they can’t actually come up with anything that will make life or make their lives last forever. They try to solve the problem of death by material means, by different types of medicines but still it doesn’t work. The real process to get free from death is given by Lord Kapiladev because when one practices bhakti yoga, devotional service then he gets free from having to take birth again in this material world.

Why do we need to study the material elements? How is that going to help us? Because we need to know that we are different than the material elements. Just like Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita,

bhumir apo ‘nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca ahankara itiyam me bhinna prakrtir astadha [Bg 7.4]

These eight material elements comprise the Lord’s separated, external material energy. And then,

apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg 7.5]

Besides these eight material elements there is another element, which is superior. Apara is the inferior material energy and then paraprakrti is the superior energy that is the living entity. The living entities can never be created and they can never be destroyed. This superior energy is eternal. The material energy also cannot be created and destroyed at least not by the living entities efforts. But its manifest vyakta and avyakta unmanifest according to the will of the Supreme Lord. When He desires then the material energy, maha-tattva is generated and when He desires he brings it back in but it is constantly being changed but the living entity, acala is never changed. It is eternal.

Therefore they will not be able to create life from mater because it is a different type of energy. You can’t mix material energy and make it become spiritual energy. Similarly the soul can never be destroyed, ajo nityah sasvato ‘yam purano na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20] In just a few verses of Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna solves the whole scientific dilemma: what is the source of life, what is the origin. Here Devahuti is describing the origin.

The scientists are trying to understand the origin but how can they understand the origin when they don’t even know when and if there was an origin. They are assuming that there must have been something that was the source. Some of them assume that there was a source, an origin and some of them assume that the manifestation is eternal or has always existed. How can they know? They have only been living for fifty years. Or you can say that as long as human history has been existent they can try to judge on that basis - say five thousand years there has been a historical record and there is no indication of a creation during those five thousand years. So they would have to speculate and anything that happened before five thousand years, it might have been like this or something!

It is a very difficult task but still they don’t mind ’sticking their necks’ out and making bold statements that the universe began so many billions of years ago. Where is the evidence for that? Is there any proof? No. It is very easy to make such statements and there is no evidence required. They simply make their statement on the basis of their so called learning and no one challenges them but Srila Prabhupada challenged them. Prabhupada challenged them on practically all of their bold statements: that life comes from matter or that the origin comes from a big bang or it comes from the void. He challenged them on all these points. Therefore he is the greatest of the scientists because he would say, “I am not a scientists but because I am hearing from the greatest scientist - from Lord Krishna, from Lord Brahma, from Kapila therefore we can challenge all these people that are simply bluffing.”

We should not be very easily swayed by their philosophies. Just like for example they say that our universe or the sky that we see comprises hundreds and millions of light years I distance. Now if we ask them how did you measure that? What kind of measurement system did you have? If you go into it turns out it is very suspicious type of measuring system that they have got. It is very speculative based on some degrees of light turning colors. No evidence and it is changing always. This year it is a hundred million light years, next year a hundred and twenty light years. They have to keep up with Star Wars. So have to keep increasing it, have to keep making it more amazing. Otherwise how will they keep getting taxes for all their explorative space journeys? Therefore we don’t hold any value in their statements about the origin of the universe.

For example I went to the Hayden Planetarium. It is the largest planetarium in the world in New York and they had a big explosion sound, like shaking. We were all sitting there and supposedly the universe came out and they said that everything came with the big bang and it popped out of the void. Now what does void mean? Void means there is nothing there to pop out. By definition it means there is nothing there. So it is a contradiction. Everything came out of the void. So it means that the void must have had something in it that something came out of it.

These metaphysical propositions that they are making supercedes science. It doesn’t make any sense according to science but still they state this because how else can you explain it? And because in principle they are atheists so rather than give the credit that everything came from God, which is also inconceivable they prefer to say inconceivably everything came from void. Both are using the same logic. We also say everything inconceivably comes from Him. He is a small medium size person. How could the whole universe or millions of universes fit inside Him. It is inconceivable.

They say it is inconceivable. That everything could come out of a void or a singularity very small point. So no evidence no proof of any of these things. They may challenge us. That is why Prabhupada wanted to construct this Temple of Vedic Planetarium to challenge all the scientific theories. Let them come, “Bring your theories, your hundred million light year theories!”

I have given some presentation on Vedic Cosmology at different universities around America and other places. Sometimes the scientist challenge us, “How can we believe this? What evidence have you got?” And I respond, “What evidence have you got? First of all lets take your own theories. We have our evidence and we can present that but first of all let us examine your evidence. Where is the evidence of the universe coming out of a void? Where is the evidence of a void or universe popping out of a void? Where is the evidence of a big explosion creating order so precise that all the universes traveling around just like a big Rolex watch? You can set your watch by it? Where is the evidence of that?” So then he was quite.

We have our evidence because we are receiving knowledge from persons who still live. Brahma is not dead. Krishna is not dead. Do you think that Krishna is dead or Brahma is dead? They are still living. We are receiving knowledge from the persons who were there when the universe began and according to Bhagavatam even Visnu or Krishna existed before the material elements or the universe began. So this is the best evidence. We are hearing from the creator Himself and from the first created being who was secondary creator. They are giving us information.

They may say we don’t believe that there is such a person that has been created. We haven’t seen Him. But how much can you see. You have only been living for the last fifty years. And by your admission the universe began billions of years ago. So how could you have seen Him? And besides your eyes are so faulty. How can you see so many things? So we have our evidence.

The Vedic Planetarium is meant to be presented exactly according to the Vedas. When we were visiting South India and speaking with different experts, pundits in this field of Vedic cosmology. Their first questions were, “What is your plan? How do you plan to present this planetarium?” They were excited but they asked that. We answered, “We plan to present it exactly according to the Vedic version.” They said, “Okay. Then we will help you. Otherwise we don’t want any part of it. If you are going to make a compromise with western science.”

So that is a confirmation of what Srila Prabhupada wanted. And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur in his translation of Surya Siddhanta, Siddhanta Siromani and so many of his notes, he pointed out in his introduction that, “Yes I realize that this jyotish sastra, this Vedic astronomy is difficult but please don’t make it seem that it is more difficult than it is. Don’t discourage bright young people from studying this. It is possible to understand it.’

I took that as a great important statement for me because having looked at the Surya Siddhanta I came to the conclusion that it was impossible to understand. But it wasn’t impossible but for some people it would be but fortunately we enlisted a group of devotee scientists who are very expert in mathematics and they got involved and were able to understand these verses very nicely. And they have proven that the Jyotish sastras and the Puranas are not incompatible nor are they contradictory - which has been taught for a long time mistakenly - but actually they are completely compatible and we see that the Bhagavatam has the seeds of al Vedic cosmology and astronomy in code forms Then the Jyotish sastras expands on all kinds of details and calculations and mathematics and things like that.

It is not something that we have to be afraid of or intimidated by the material scientists. They are bluffing from the very ‘get go’ as they say and they have no evidence what so ever and we have so much evidence. We can use our scriptures, which are historically speaking at least five thousand years old. Actually much older than that, hundreds and millions of years old! Surya Siddhanta is spoken by Surya himself millions of years ago. So we have this information that when using these scriptures you can make all the same calculations as modern science. How is that possible?

If this knowledge is not correct but yet it has been existing for thousand and millions of years and it explains the phenomenon that we see such as eclipses and day and night and the seasons and the phases of the moon, then how is it possible if this is so old? We have this great opportunity to convince the open minded thoughtful persons that Vedic knowledge is superior to all modern theories of science. If we present it as it is according to the Vedas, and we have to be fearless and not afraid of their challenges. Then it would be a great victory. People will be coming from all over the world to see the Vedic Planetarium. And then we will have a great opportunity for preaching to the whole world. They will come to Sridham Mayapur and it will expand this sankirtan movement all over the world. Thank you very much. Are there any questions?

Question: Hare Krishna Maharaj. Could you speak a little about the flat earth theory?

HH Danavir Swami: Which flat earth theory?

Question: I heard there is a Vedic version or that, something like that. I am not sure.

HH Danavir Swami: Well first you have to find out what your theory is then I will know what you are asking.

Question: I heard that somewhere in sastra it is said that the earth is flat in some way.

HH Danavir Swami: Bhumandala is flat. So that is a flat earth theory. We accept that. Nut as far as our earth globe - according to Mahabharat and Srimad-Bhagavatam and other sastras it is a globe. It is round. Our little earth is just a little spec on the Bhumandala, which is the greater earth.

This Mataji over here?

Question: Maharaj it says in the Bhagavatam that the moon is much further away from the sun. So the planet in the sky that we see as the moon what is this? The scientists see a planet and they tell us that this is the moon and they went to the moon. So where did they go and what is this that they see with their instruments that they say this is the moon?

HH Danavir Swami: I think we agree on what the moon is with the scientists. We don’t have any problem with that. There may be some disagreement about the distances and therefore Prabhupada generally concluded that because the distances where faulty, because they had a faulty idea about the distance therefore how could they have gone there in such a short period of time? It was a very long distance. So based on that he generally discounted their theory that they went there. That was quite an amazing thing to do in the 50’s, 60’s. He even predicted ahead of time that they couldn’t go there. Now there are so many other persons that have even made different videos saying that the moon landing was a hoax. You can see them on the internet if you want - all the different things that they say were faulty and prove that it was a hoax. It was done in Arizona.

If you go to the Bathonian (?) Institute in Washington DC they have moon rocks. These are rocks from the moon. It says, “Don’t they look similar to those in Arizona?” (Laughter.) They told Prabhupada so Prabhupada said, “Yes they look similar because they are from Arizona.”

Question: While we are setting out to build this Temple of Vedic Planetarium I understand that the purpose of it is to create some sort of sensation by presenting an alternative to the current scientific model of the universe but just like Prabhupada translated Bhagavad-gita As It Is on the basis of his realization of it, it would be difficult like you said to present a Vedic version as it is if we don’t have a clear understanding and realization of it. So isn’t there some element of risk to build a planetarium that we ourselves don’t fully understand and in fact amongst ourselves I understand there is more than one model that has been presented by various scientist devotees in terms of conceptualization? In other words the result of it if we don’t fully understand what we are doing would be to make big fools of ourselves in the eyes of they majority. So could you please address this?

HH Danavir Swami: Therefore it behooves us to understand, to get a correct understanding so that there are no more doubts. Therefore we have to dive into it with full enthusiasm and make sure we do understand it. That is not impossible. Prabhupada wouldn’t have given us an impossible task. He gave us this task to do it. We have been meditating on it and working on it for thirty-three years. Perhaps the time has come now for us, by the grace of the spiritual master.

mukham karoti vacalam pangum langhayate girim yat krpa tam aham vande sri-gurum dina-taranam

By the mercy of the guru even a lame man can climb mountains, dumb man can speak eloquent words or poetry. So even something as difficult as this understanding - the 5th canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam can be done by the mercy of the spiritual master. That is our basis, isn’t it, faith in Guru.

Question: You started your answer by saying we have to fully understand but then it seems that you are saying we don’t need to fully understand, we just repeat and.

HH Danavir Swami: No. In other words we have to go in with faith that my Guru Maharaj has given me this instruction. Just like the illiterate brahmana in South India. His Guru Maharaj told him to read the Bhagavad-gita everyday. Now he is illiterate so that is a difficult task but still he didn’t reject the order and he was trying to read everyday the Bhagavad-gita and all the learned brahmanas were laughing at him. You know the story. But he was crying tears of ecstasy and Lord Caitanya embraced him. He said, “You are the real knower of Bhagavad-gita. So we have to take the order of the spiritual master as our very life and soul. He wanted it. We have to try for it sincerely and by his mercy, by the mercy of Krishna,

yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau tasyaite kathita hy arthah prakasante mahatmanah [SU 6.23]

All the imports of the Vedic knowledge will be revealed to one who has implicit faith in both Guru and Krishna. Thank you very much for your question. Thank you very much. Srimad-Bhagavatam ki, jai. [Applause.]